A Personal Relationship with Jesus is not enough

[D28guy]

An interesting scripture...

"I indeed baptise you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whos sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Its true that it is impossible to be saved without baptism. But that baptism is Spirit baptism into the body of Christ. This baptism is performed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself at the moment a person embraces Christ through faith alone.

It has nothing necesarrily to do with speaking in tongues. Some never recieve that gift in their entire life, but rather recieve other gifts. This Spirit baptism is simply being "sealed into the body of Christ, for the day of redemption" as descripbed in Ephesians.

And it has nothing to do with water baptism.

Water baptism is a beautiful picture of the death to the old life(into the water) that we die to, and the rising in new Spiritual life(up from the water) that we experience at our new birth.

I remember when I was water baptised with great fondness. But I was saved many weeks prior to that when I entered into relationship with the risen Lord through faith alone.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Living4Him]

DKH,

We have made the connection over and over. However, it appears that our connections are not valid in your opinion.

Acts 2:38 "The Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Peter gave the two things needed in order to receive the Holy Spirit: repent and be baptized. He didn't state repent and you shall receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the giver of life. A person cannot be born again without the Holy Spirit indwelling in them.

The first part of Mark 16:16 states "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved;" It doesn't state whoever believes is saved.

 

[Briguy]

Acts 2:38 I have explained this other times on other threads. We are not the audience the scripture is intended for in terms of practice. Peter was answering the question, from the people of Israel who said, What should WE do? Peter is calling the House of Israel to repent of the sin of killing the Messiah.

Acts 22:16 The Baptism was a “signâ€￾ of the true commitment. It associated a person with the group, “The Wayâ€￾. Once Baptized it was accepted by the general public that a person joined The Way and the person was then open to much persecution. “Calling on the name of the Lordâ€￾ is clearly what washes away sins in this verse, as seen in many other scriptures, in particular the one that says, “those who call upon the Lord will be savedâ€￾ (sorry, I don’t have time to find that verse but I am sure you know it). Also, I included verses below, which show what Paul said early on about baptism. I include this as Paul is the subject of Acts 22:16. I will let you respond to this and then we can tackle more verses.


13] Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
[14] And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
[15] For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
[16] And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

1 cor. 1:
[14] I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
[15] Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
[16] And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
[18] For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[faithcontender]

L4H,

In the following verses water baptism was done after they received the Holy Spirit. It is very clear here that Cornelius and his household became children of God after they believed the gospel and water baptism was done afterwards.

Acts
10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Very clear that remission of sins is done when one believe in Christ. It does not include here that baptism is needed for the remission of sin.

10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

[Living4Him]

If you read I cor. in the context, Paul is speaking to the individuals in Corinth who were paying special allegiance to the individual who initiated them into the community by baptism. Some people were stating that their baptism was better than another person's because of who baptized them. Paul states that this attitude is in conflict with the gospel of the cross.

 

[Briguy]

L4H, you missed the most important point Paul clearly seperates Baptism from The Gospel. You are saying they are the same, Paul says they are not. How could Paul say he was not sent to do the very thing you are saying saves people??

"[17] For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

In the Christ of Easter,
Brian

 

[amberrose]

Salvation is by faith not works:-

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

baptism is a work its as simple as that

in Christ Amber

 

[Eric B]

Technically, baptism occurs after a person makes a profession of faith. I do not hold to the belief that baptism is merely an act of obedience. I was taught that during my years of being IFB. For a Christian denomination that claims that "we hold to the Bible for all truths" no where does it state in the Bible that it is an act of obedience. The Bible clearly spells out the importance of baptism, but the baptist church twist the texts to fit their belief.

OK, how long after his profession of faith is baptism? Right away? Or is it days, weeks or months after membership classes and what other initiation procedures, with the person not being saved until that final step?
As I've been saying, profession and baptism originally went together, but now have been separated, because each Church wants to indoctrinate the convert into their group, rather than just baptizing him "into Christ" and letting him go and find a congregation of his own. But of the two, it is the "baptism" (immersion) of the person by the Spirit into the body of Christ (and the spiritual death of the old man, rise of the new, which takes place at conversion) that saves, not the accompanying water ceremony which pictured those realities. Since this separation was never authorized by Scripture, the water ceremony is still done in "obedience" at a later time, after the membership process, or finding a Church, etc. But it was never what saved! And you can't say a cnvert is not saved until that time.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Living4Him:
DKH,

We have made the connection over and over. However, it appears that our connections are not valid in your opinion.

The fact is that you have not made one single connection between any verse that speaks of baptsm to John 3:5. Demonstrate that John 3:5 is speaking of baptism. You cannot. It is speaking of the new birth, not baptism. You need to be born again, not baptized. Baptism is not mentioned in the chapter.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

James rejects the idea that faith can be expressed without works in James 2.

Paul argues that the ACT in salvation is confession and belief in Romans 10.

Paul argues in Romans 2 "it is NOT the hearers of the Law of God that are just but the DOERS will be JUSTIFIED".

Christ said that "It is NOT those who SAY Lord Lord that will be saved but he who DOES the will of My Father".

Baptism's ACTION according to Peter is the "APPEAL to God for a clean conscience" (the death blow to the RC idea of baptism).

So when one actively CHOOSE belief rather then rebellion, and chooses repentance over rejection, when they choose to CONFESS rather than condemn, when the submit and APPEAL to God for a clean conscience they are 'saved by grace through faith".

And the WORK that is done in that process is "NOT" able to save - only God CAN save. The fact that He enables work as part of that act of acceptance of salvation does not make Him LESS of God - or His saving act LESS of grace.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by amberrose:
Salvation is by faith not works:-

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

baptism is a work its as simple as that

in Christ Amber </font>[/QUOTE]No, Eph 2:8,9 proves that baptism is not a work because works can not save us (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Gal. 3:26,27, 1 Cor. 6:11, etc.). Baptism saves us through faith alone. If anyone believes that they have earned God's favor and grace by their act of baptism, they have committed a mortal sin.

[ April 10, 2004, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

[amberrose]

no where in the Bible does it say that....we are saved by faith through Gods redeaming grace..baptism is a work in that it is something you physically do.....an outward sign of faith as were commanded....it is however unnessasary for salvation

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

baptism is a work its as simple as that

in Christ Amber </font>[/QUOTE]

No, Eph 2:8,9 proves that baptism is not a work because works can not save us (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Gal. 3:26,27, 1 Cor. 6:11, etc.). Baptism saves us through faith alone. If anyone believes that they have earned God's favor and grace by their act of baptism, they have committed a mortal sin.

"They have committed a mortal sin." Now, you are speaking like a Catholic differentiating between different kinds of sin, when our Lord put no difference between sin. Sin is sin. One sin, no matter how small is enough to keep you out of heaven. One small lie you will keep you out of Heaven. Look at Scripture:

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
--Every man is a liar. That includes you and me.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
--Now were in big time time trouble.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--Not only are you guilty of lying (bearing false witness includes lying--that is what it is), you have by default, broken all Ten Commandment. You are held guilty as to breaking all the law in God's sight.

There is no such thing as a mortal sin; no such thing as a venial sin. Sin is sin--white lies, big lies--whoppers, etc. They are just as bad as murder and adultery. They transgress the law of God.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--That is the definition of sin--transgressing the law of God. You break any of God's laws in any way you have sinned. It doesn't matter which law. It doesn't matter how you break that law. You have sinned. You have been found guilty of offending a holy God. An unholy persoh such as yourself cannot stand before a holy God. That is the very reason that Christ died for your sin, and made an atonement for your sin.

To even suggest that baptism atones for your sin (which you have) is blasphemy. It is sin in itself. It suggests that the atonement was not enough. It suggests that Chtist's work on the cross was not enough enough so you had to play your part in salvation too. It suggest that Christ was too anemic and weak to accomlish the work salvation, so you had to help him do it by your man-made work of baptism.

Savation is by grace through faith. Baptism is an act of man done in obedience to Christ's command after salvation, just like prayer or witnessing are acts of obedience. There is no difference.
DHK

 

[John Gilmore]

DHK,

What I am saying has nothing at all to do with the papist distinction between mortal and venial sins. We sin daily and are daily forgiven when we come to God in repentance and faith. The mortal sin is unbelief. When we trust in our merit and works for salvation rather than Christ alone, we commit a mortal sin:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16

The atonement of man was accomplished on the cross. So the work of redemption of man is finished. We receive the purchase of Christ's blood when the Holy Spirit works faith in Christ through His Word alone. The Word of God comes to man through the preaching of gospel (Rom 10:17), baptism (see previous references), absolution (John 20:22,23), and communion ( Matt. 26:26-28). These are the objective promises of the gospel and can not annulled no matter how many heretics deny the truth.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:


The atonement of man was accomplished on the cross. So the work of redemption of man is finished. We receive the purchase of Christ's blood when the Holy Spirit works faith in Christ through His Word alone. The Word of God comes to man through the preaching of gospel (Rom 10:17), baptism (see previous references), absolution (John 20:22,23), and communion ( Matt. 26:26-28). These are the objective promises of the gospel and can not annulled no matter how many heretics deny the truth.

Here is what Paul defines as the gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The gospel is a very simple message--the death, the burial, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is through this message that one is saved. This is the message that Paul declares, and did declare where ever he went. It is quite evident that baptism was not a part of it.

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Baptism is not part of the gospel, not part of salvation. Paul makes that abundantly clear in these verses. God didn't even send him to baptize. He sent him to preach the gospel. The Corinthians were saved without baptism. Paul was not sent to baptize.

Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

A gospel that includes baptism is another gospel. It is not the one that Paul preached. Those that preach baptism as necessary for salvation are accursed of God. For salvation is by grace through faith. It is not of works (which baptism is.)

The only objective promise of the gospel is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Salvation is granted to them that believe. Faith alone grants is the one condition of eternal life. Believe and you shall be saved

For by grace are ye saved through faith--not baptism, not absolution, not communion, not any other thing. It is only through faith. To add any other thing is to add to the Word of God, that which is condemned in the Word of God.
DHK

 

[John Gilmore]

DHK,

I am not adding. You are subtracting. Preaching, baptism, absolution, and communion have the promise of the gospel. They are rightly received by faith alone. They are not human works.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by John Gilmore:
DHK,

I am not adding. You are subtracting. Preaching, baptism, absolution, and communion have the promise of the gospel. They are rightly received by faith alone. They are not human works.

Sometimes it is a matter of semantics, however I don't think that is the case here. For example:

I was saved by the preaching of the gospel, thereby receiving forgiveness (absolution) of sins, when I trusted Christ as my Saviour. It was then that I was baptized by the Holy Spirit into the family of God, by which I am made a child and am able to have fellowship (communion) with other believers in this same family of born again believers.
--Now that takes care of the preaching, the baptism, the absolution, and communion, that you refer to. But I don't believe that you are referring to those terms in that way, are you?

Water baptism is not Spirit baptism.

Being baptized in water has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. It is not a means of grace. It does nothing for you except get you wet. It is simply a step of obedience to the command of Christ, and nothing more. Water cannot save, has no part in salvation, and never will. It takes away from the sacrificial blood of Christ if one says that it does play a part. Christ paid the penalty for my sin, not baptism.
DHK

 

[John Gilmore]

I was saved by the preaching of the gospel, thereby receiving forgiveness (absolution) of sins, when I trusted Christ as my Saviour. It was then that I was baptized by the Holy Spirit into the family of God, by which I am made a child and am able to have fellowship (communion) with other believers in this same family of born again believers.--Now that takes care of the preaching, the baptism, the absolution, and communion, that you refer to. But I don't believe that you are referring to those terms in that way, are you?

What you say is true but it doesn't tell the whole story. Whenever I hear the gospel, when I am baptized with water comprehended in and connected to God's command, when I am absolved, and when I eat the Lord's body and drink His blood, I must firmly believe that I am forgiven for the sake of Christ alone and not through any human work or worthiness in myself. If I consider hearing the word, baptism, absolution, or communion to be human works that I perform to please God, then I am trusting in my own works and not Christ alone.

 

[John Gilmore]

At this point, it is necessary to draw a sharp distinction between the mysteries of grace instituted by Christ and the false worship of the papacy.

In Christian absolution, sins are freely forgiven for Christ's sake through faith alone. Under the papacy, sins are forgiven through man's work (penance, satisfactions, indulgences, and purgatory) with no mention of faith apprehending the absolution.

In Christian communion, we receive the testament of Christ's body and blood in, with, and under the bread and wine for the forgiveness of sins through faith alone. Under the papacy, sins are forgiven through man's work of offering up to God a blasphemous sacrifice with no mention of faith receiving the gift of God.

 

[Eric B]

So it seems that the main difference between the Lutheran view and the RCC is "penance, satisfactions, indulgences, and purgatory", that they call "flesh and blood of Christ" ceremony a "
sacrifice", a you emphasize "faith" (Though I have seen many RC's mention faith and pledge salvation by grace, etc).
Is this true? Because other than those points, the two systems seem the same.