A question about Calvinisum

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Bob,

What is your definiton of regeneration? Is it something that we do ourselves, or is it something that God does through his mighty power?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Brother Bob]

regeneration is to take away a heart of stone and give me a heart of flesh. To raise me from the mire of the clay and set me on a Rock (Christ), to raise me from a dead state of sin and make me alive in Christ Jesus, to be "born again". amen, in one word "Salvation"

I don't believe some one is called and then walks around a year or so and then is regenerated and walks around another 6 months and then is predestinated to be conformed to the image of His son, and later justified and of course in the resurrection we shall be glorified.

I believe it all goes together.

 

[Helen]

What would your answer be to the last question: Who determines whether someone is regenerated?

It doesn't matter what 'my' answer is. The Bible's answer is 'believe.' The only note I would add is that this 'believe' is more than the way we use it today, meaning simply an intellectual acknowledgment. It means believing with your life. That's not much for any of us at first, actually, but God enables us more and more.

Lord I believe; help thou mine unbelief....

 

[Helen]

Bob,

What is your definiton of regeneration? Is it something that we do ourselves, or is it something that God does through his mighty power?

Joseph Botwinick

God does it, as Brother Bob states, but the person has to want it.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jesus defined eternal life as KNOWING God and the Son (John 17). Therefore, if logic has any meaning at all, eternal death is NOT KNOWING God and the Son. This, clearly, is not intellectual acknowledgement, for we do know the Bible clearly says there will be a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.

Isaiah 43:10:
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me

 

[Brother Bob]

before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me

He is everlasting to everlasting, how could there be?

I got to go to bed fellows, nice discussion and we pick up tomorrow if I don't get too far behind. I been down this road several time though so I think I can find you. :sleep:

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

God does it, as Brother Bob states, but the person has to want it.

Helen,

What is regeneration?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Tom Butler]

Okay Hanna, you have now been introduced to another difference between Cs and non-Cs.

Calvinists believe that regeneration and salvation are two separate things.

No-Cals believe that they are the same thing.

Cals believe that by a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, a spiritually dead heart is quickened (made alive, regenerated, caused to be born again). Then the HS draws the sinner toward repentance and faith. This making alive enables the spiritually dead sinner to understand his sin and sinfulness, freely repent of sin and freely trust the finished work of Christ for salvation.

Non-Cals believe that a spiritually dead sinner is given the ability from birth to freely choose Christ at anytime. That God is involved in the process, but ultimately the choice is the human's. Some non-Cals will dispute this, but generally they hold the view that God is powerless to act until the human does with regard to salvation.

You will hear at some point that once God elects someone, they will be saved whether they want to or not. That God forces them to be saved. And, that if someone is not elect, they can't be saved even if they want to. This, of course, is a distortion. The scripture is plain. God will save all who come to him in repentance and faith, and will save none who don't.

This is getting to be fun, isn't it?

 

[Helen]

Helen,

What is regeneration?

Joseph Botwinick

to be born again, by definition

 

[Allan]

Non-Cals believe that a spiritually dead sinner is given the ability from birth to freely choose Christ at anytime. That God is involved in the process, but ultimately the choice is the human's. Some non-Cals will dispute this, but generally they hold the view that God is powerless to act until the human does with regard to salvation.

This is absolutely wrong of the typical Baptist Non-Cals. If you are speaking of Peligans or Open Theists then you are correct. The Baptist Non-Cals believe a person can only come to Christ as the Spirit of God calls them and not at any time they choose. Again a blatant falsehood and mischaractorization concerning our beliefs that God is 'powerless' to act... God is all powerful but has of Himself established that salvation comes to those who believe while not yet alive IN Christ. To be regerated is to be Alive, yes but Alive IN Christ. And until one believes that and places ones belief or Faith IN Christ, that one is still a sinner lost and bound for Hell.

You will hear at some point that once God elects someone, they will be saved whether they want to or not. That God forces them to be saved. And, that if someone is not elect, they can't be saved even if they want to. This, of course, is a distortion. The scripture is plain. God will save all who come to him in repentance and faith, and will save none who don't.

As to your first sentence, are those who are regenerated done so because they 'want' to be?? Not according to Calvinism. If not then they ARE saved even if they don't want to be, are they not??
Anyhoo, I'm not here to debate Calvinism and Non- Cal but to state that both theological standpoints are VIEWS of the mechanics of the Truths Both sides hold as the Absolute Truths. What you have to do is decide based on your own studies is decide which Viewpoint hold closest to what the Bible speaks. Both sides (can gaurentee you that they are rendering the other views most accurately when in fact niether for the most part Ever seemingly do.

This is getting to be fun, isn't it?

Oh boy, it gets better every time we re-hash it. But when it comes from the OP's questions then MAYBE just MAYBE it will maintain with helpful infomation both for and against and not downgrade to flippent remarks and name calling.

 

[J.D.]

Allen, SOME Baptists believe that salvation is a natural process with God being nothing more than an obedient respondent to a man's "sinner's prayer".

Others, better informed, believe that man can not turn to God without the "wooing" of the Spirit of God.

Still others, namely Calvinists such as myself, believe that man can not turn to God without being changed in heart by the Spirit of God.

"Except ye be born again, ye can not see the Kingdom of God"

 

[Hanna]

Tomorrow

This is getting to be fun, isn't it?

Yes, actually it is I am learning a lot, thanks. See you tomorrow

Hanna

 

[Allan]

Allen, SOME Baptists believe that salvation is a natural process with God being nothing more than an obedient respondent to a man's "sinner's prayer".

Others, better informed, believe that man can not turn to God without the "wooing" of the Spirit of God.

Still others, namely Calvinists such as myself, believe that man can not turn to God without being changed in heart by the Spirit of God.

"Except ye be born again, ye can not see the Kingdom of God"

I understand that brother, but you can not contextually show that regeneration is being born again. Especially in light of the fact Christ uses the actual birthing process as the equivelent symbolism physically to that which happens spiritually.
To be born phycally places you INTO a famaly and automatically gives you family rights as you are born into that family and all that comes with it.
This is why Jesus goes on to state that:
You know the wind is there because you hear it but you have no clue where it is going or where it has been. You aren't the wind so you have no clue. (obvious paraphrase)
Regeneration is not the same as being saved for being saved means to be IN Christ so to is the illistration of being born again as you are Born INTO Christ. This is not regeneration as in one day coming INTO Christ but the New Birth IS IN Christ being in the Family of God.

An interesting study: (I don't know if you ever have done this but I did personally)
But look up every instance in the bible concerning regeneration and in what context it is in. I can not find even the a portion that equates born again with regeneration in context. You may be the first but hey it is an interesting study at least...

 

[Brother Bob]

Regeneration is a New Testament concept that Jesus used to show Nicodemus the inwardness and depth of the change that even religious Jews must undergo if they were ever to see and enter the kingdom of God, and so have eternal life (John 3:3-15). Jesus told the change as being “born again, " through belief in Jesus Christ.

Not all my words, but how I believe it.

 

[Allan]

Agreed Brother Bod, I was just speaking of the Calvinstic view of Regernation is being made alive or born again but that salvation is either immediately afterward or salvation can come even up to (in few cases) decades later but many are several months even years later.

I should have clarified WHAT point of view (the Calvinistic mind set) I was speaking on or contending agaist.
Yeah, if I would have seen that written by another I probably would have commented on it pretty quick as well.

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh, glad you clarified that for me. I thought it look strange for you.

 

[Hanna]

You will hear at some point that once God elects someone, they will be saved whether they want to or not. That God forces them to be saved. And, that if someone is not elect, they can't be saved even if they want to. This, of course, is a distortion. The scripture is plain. God will save all who come to him in repentance and faith, and will save none who don't.

QUOTE]

This is exactly what I understand calvinisum to be. So if this is not true, what then is irresistible grace and what hope have those who are not elect?

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh, but its not true:
John:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18

 

[Jarthur001]

You will hear at some point that once God elects someone, they will be saved whether they want to or not. That God forces them to be saved. And, that if someone is not elect, they can't be saved even if they want to. This, of course, is a distortion. The scripture is plain. God will save all who come to him in repentance and faith, and will save none who don't.

QUOTE]

This is exactly what I understand calvinisum to be. So if this is not true, what then is irresistible grace and what hope have those who are not elect?

Hanna, Tom is right.

This is how people try to mislead others on Calvinism. Why they do this...I am not sure. Maybe they do not understand...or maybe they just want to mislead others. But....God does not drag people into the kingdom while they are kicking and screaming .....
"No NO ...I do not want to be saved!! Please don't make me!!! Please!!! Someone help me!!! God is trying to save me...and I do not want to be saved!!!!!"

You may see a sinner say this, but this is before regeneration.

To understand irresistible grace, you must understand regeneration and the sinful state of man. Man is dead in that He cannot understand the truth. This does not mean his ears do not work. It does not mean man is stupid. It means that he hears but does not understand the need of salvation.

God works in his heart opening his understanding and turning on the light of the truth..showing the sinner that he is in fact a sinner and in need to be saved from his sins. People that hear and walk away have not been inlighened to the truth of salvation by the Holy Spirit.

The sinner that walks away after hearing the truth of the gospel has listen to his own sin nature tell them they are fine just as they are. Or maybe their sin nature will tell them that they will do it another day...after they are done sinning some more. But for some reason the sinner loves his sin more then to be saved from his sin and will not believe. There is no real need to be saved THAT DAY as far as they can see. Therefore the sinner never fully understands his need for salvation.

Once The Holy Spirit turns on the light....once the sinner sees he is a sinner and in real need to be washed by the blood of the lamb ......once the sinner understands fully that Christ is the only way to be saved from his sins....once a sinner wants to be saved from his sins and not just escape hell....once a sinner wants to be rid of sin forever as he stands before a HOLY God...grace THEN becomes irresistible and the sinner is saved.



In Christ...James

 

[Blammo]

Yes it does.

Joseph Botwinick

Thank you, Joseph, it is refreshing to see a Calvinist who does not shy away from the truth of Calvinism.