A question about Calvinisum

[Sularis]

Hrm

Jarther wrote: "But....God does not drag people into the kingdom while they are kicking and screaming .....
"No NO ...I do not want to be saved!! Please don't make me!!! Please!!! Someone help me!!! God is trying to save me...and I do not want to be saved!!!!!" "


You are absolutely right according to Calvinism God does not drag a sinner kicking and screaming into salvation - first He brainwashes them - so that they walk on in of their own free will That's what I have a problem with - the brainwashing - According to more conservative Calvinists God does not woo or try to convince anyone of anything - He commands and it is done!

Jarther wrote: "To understand irresistible grace, you must understand regeneration and the sinful state of man. Man is dead in that He cannot understand the truth. This does not mean his ears do not work. It does not mean man is stupid. It means that he hears but does not understand the need of salvation."


To be fair reading this one would almost have a fit if he was Calvinist for jarther is actually presenting a form of Calvinism known as Calvinist-lite - half the calories, all the junk. Calvinist-lite is extremely close to being correct just one more step jarther - join us - and together we'll rule the BB :tongue3:

Jarther wrote: "God works in his heart opening his understanding and turning on the light of the truth..showing the sinner that he is in fact a sinner and in need to be saved from his sins. People that hear and walk away have not been inlighened to the truth of salvation by the Holy Spirit.

The sinner that walks away after hearing the truth of the gospel has listen to his own sin nature tell them they are fine just as they are. Or maybe their sin nature will tell them that they will do it another day...after they are done sinner some more. But for some reason the sinner loves his sin more then to be saved from his sin and will not believe. There is no real need to be saved THAT DAY as far as they can see. Therefore the sinner never fully understands his need for salvation.

Once The Holy Spirit turns on the light....once the sinner sees he is a sinner and in real need to be washed by the blood of the lamb ......once the sinner understands fully that Christ is the only way to be saved from his sins....once a sinner wants to be saved from his sins and not just escape hell....once a sinner wants to be rid of sin forever as he stands before a HOLY God...grace THEN becomes irresistible and the sinner is saved."


Here is where Jarther is sooo soooo close - He has God wooing very good - He has equal call to all very good - but then he goes and ruins it but by the Spirit acting in only some. :tear:

see the reality of the matter is that the Spirit works in all - but as Jarther wrote some love their sin more.

Grace is resistible. The Spirit can be quenched - God can be wrestled though you'll lose yer hip - and Christians sin. :tear:

God doesnt just change our minds and then go away and let us sin again - He is with us in a constant battle against our old nature - supporting us, but ultimately asking us to choose to do that which is good and holy. He is trying to help us grow and mature and what father does absolutely everything for their child? That's not the way a child learns and matures. A child needs to do things on their own and learn from what they are doing. A good father tells the child what is wrong and what is right, and gives them principles from which they can operate.

All in all I'd almost swallow what Jarther wrote except for the fact he presented a liberal form of Calvinism - not mainstream or even hyper-Calvinism - and as such he's so so very close take that one step Jarther - our side believes in election too - just not as the normative process.

 

[russell55]

All in all I'd almost swallow what Jarther wrote except for the fact he presented a liberal form of Calvinism - not mainstream or even hyper-Calvinism . . . .

Ummm....no....that's historical or classic calvinism. Almost every calvinist I know believes what Jarthur presented.

And hyper-calvinism is not calvinism at all.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarther wrote: "But....God does not drag people into the kingdom while they are kicking and screaming .....
"No NO ...I do not want to be saved!! Please don't make me!!! Please!!! Someone help me!!! God is trying to save me...and I do not want to be saved!!!!!" "


You are absolutely right according to Calvinism God does not drag a sinner kicking and screaming into salvation - first He brainwashes them - so that they walk on in of their own free will That's what I have a problem with - the brainwashing - According to more conservative Calvinists God does not woo or try to convince anyone of anything - He commands and it is done!

Jarther wrote: "To understand irresistible grace, you must understand regeneration and the sinful state of man. Man is dead in that He cannot understand the truth. This does not mean his ears do not work. It does not mean man is stupid. It means that he hears but does not understand the need of salvation."


To be fair reading this one would almost have a fit if he was Calvinist for jarther is actually presenting a form of Calvinism known as Calvinist-lite - half the calories, all the junk. Calvinist-lite is extremely close to being correct just one more step jarther - join us - and together we'll rule the BB :tongue3:

Jarther wrote: "God works in his heart opening his understanding and turning on the light of the truth..showing the sinner that he is in fact a sinner and in need to be saved from his sins. People that hear and walk away have not been inlighened to the truth of salvation by the Holy Spirit.

The sinner that walks away after hearing the truth of the gospel has listen to his own sin nature tell them they are fine just as they are. Or maybe their sin nature will tell them that they will do it another day...after they are done sinner some more. But for some reason the sinner loves his sin more then to be saved from his sin and will not believe. There is no real need to be saved THAT DAY as far as they can see. Therefore the sinner never fully understands his need for salvation.

Once The Holy Spirit turns on the light....once the sinner sees he is a sinner and in real need to be washed by the blood of the lamb ......once the sinner understands fully that Christ is the only way to be saved from his sins....once a sinner wants to be saved from his sins and not just escape hell....once a sinner wants to be rid of sin forever as he stands before a HOLY God...grace THEN becomes irresistible and the sinner is saved."


Here is where Jarther is sooo soooo close - He has God wooing very good - He has equal call to all very good - but then he goes and ruins it but by the Spirit acting in only some. :tear:

see the reality of the matter is that the Spirit works in all - but as Jarther wrote some love their sin more.

Grace is resistible. The Spirit can be quenched - God can be wrestled though you'll lose yer hip - and Christians sin. :tear:

God doesnt just change our minds and then go away and let us sin again - He is with us in a constant battle against our old nature - supporting us, but ultimately asking us to choose to do that which is good and holy. He is trying to help us grow and mature and what father does absolutely everything for their child? That's not the way a child learns and matures. A child needs to do things on their own and learn from what they are doing. A good father tells the child what is wrong and what is right, and gives them principles from which they can operate.

All in all I'd almost swallow what Jarther wrote except for the fact he presented a liberal form of Calvinism - not mainstream or even hyper-Calvinism - and as such he's so so very close take that one step Jarther - our side believes in election too - just not as the normative process.

And here we have yet another non Calvinist, telling a Calvinist what they "really believe".

Above is called Classic Calvinism. I have no idea what "liberal Calvinism" is that is posted above. And the brainwashing part is called Hyper-Calvinism.

The rest is the same old mis-leading information by Calvinist haters...no need to reply.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Concerning predestination/election...does this mean that there are those born into the world for whom there is no hope. That no amount of prayer or witnessing will make any difference because God does not/will not/did not choose them?

Yes that is true.... almost. God is pleased to use the Gospel preached to bring sinners to faith in Jesus Christ, through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. We do have to believe... but we believe because we are regenerated (or born again) John 1:12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,
13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

They were born not of the will of man but God!

Let me ask you something Hanna. Will the person in the remotest part of the Jungles of the world have a chance to be saved without hearing the Gospel? No Is God fair in letting them live their entire lives without hearing? Let me tell you...... there are many in this world who live their whole lives without ever hearing a word about Jesus. Is God unfair? He actually is unfair. He sent His Son who was without sin to die for sinners. I don't want Him to be fair.... just merciful. He is the potter, we are the clay. He has the right to make one vessel unto honor and one unto dishonor. Romans 9:21. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Romans 9: 15. For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16. So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Hanna... if not for the grace of God, all men would go to hell. We all deserve hell. Is He not just to save some? The Bible says He is just. The Bible also says not all will be saved. So God is just to allow some to go to hell and for some, to save them. Do you believe God is all powerful?

Some will try to tell you that God loves everyone. Psalms 5 would disagree. Psalms 5: 4. For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.
5. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
6. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

When they quote 2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.... who is the you? If you read the first letter Peter wrote.... He addresses it to the elect or chosen. 1 Peter 1:1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen....... The second letter is written to ; 2 Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Those are the elect or chosen.
Now if 2 Peter 3:9 is read in context....... we see that the you are the elect. He is not willing that any of the elect would perish.
God chose people before the world was created. Ephesians 1: 4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Since He chose us before He created the world... He is patient.... He is waiting for the last of the chosen to be born and hear the Gospel and respond, before He will come again.
Let me ask you something. If God can not come till the last person has a chance to believe..... what about all the babies who are born in between the time the last person who will be saved hears and responds? He could never come back in that case. But if God has chosen people as the Bible says.... He will come back after the last of the elect come to faith. By the way, most Calvinist believe that God saves all the babies by His sovereign grace. I know I do.
Keep asking questions and study your Bible. The Holy Spirit will guide you. Just believe the Bible.
One more thing. There are no Calvinist who believe that a person exists who really wants to know Jesus and be saved, who can not. There is no such thing. Everyone who truly wants to beleive, who have faith, are saved. Grace and peace.

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes that is true.... almost. God is pleased to use the Gospel preached to bring sinners to faith in Jesus Christ, through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. We do have to believe... but we believe because we are regenerated (or born again) John 1:12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,
13. who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

They were born not of the will of man but God!

Let me ask you something Hanna. Will the person in the remotest part of the Jungles of the world have a chance to be saved without hearing the Gospel? No Is God fair in letting them live their entire lives without hearing? Let me tell you...... there are many in this world who live their whole lives without ever hearing a word about Jesus. Is God unfair? He actually is unfair. He sent His Son who was without sin to die for sinners. I don't want Him to be fair.... just merciful. He is the potter, we are the clay. He has the right to make one vessel unto honor and one unto dishonor. Romans 9:21. Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Romans 9: 15. For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16. So then it {does} not {depend} on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18. So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Hanna... if not for the grace of God, all men would go to hell. We all deserve hell. Is He not just to save some? The Bible says He is just. The Bible also says not all will be saved. So God is just to allow some to go to hell and for some, to save them. Do you believe God is all powerful?

Some will try to tell you that God loves everyone. Psalms 5 would disagree. Psalms 5: 4. For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You.
5. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.
6. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

When they quote 2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.... who is the you? If you read the first letter Peter wrote.... He addresses it to the elect or chosen. 1 Peter 1:1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen....... The second letter is written to ; 2 Peter 1:1. Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Those are the elect or chosen.
Now if 2 Peter 3:9 is read in context....... we see that the you are the elect. He is not willing that any of the elect would perish.
God chose people before the world was created. Ephesians 1: 4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Since He chose us before He created the world... He is patient.... He is waiting for the last of the chosen to be born and hear the Gospel and respond, before He will come again.
Let me ask you something. If God can not come till the last person has a chance to believe..... what about all the babies who are born in between the time the last person who will be saved hears and responds? He could never come back in that case. But if God has chosen people as the Bible says.... He will come back after the last of the elect come to faith. By the way, most Calvinist believe that God saves all the babies by His sovereign grace. I know I do.
Keep asking questions and study your Bible. The Holy Spirit will guide you. Just believe the Bible.
One more thing. There are no Calvinist who believe that a person exists who really wants to know Jesus and be saved, who can not. There is no such thing. Everyone who truly wants to beleive, who have faith, are saved. Grace and peace.

Preach it RB. :thumbs:

 

[russell55]

Of course the Lord decides who shall be added to the church daily but you must believe.

Yep, and calvinists would affirm this statement as well.

Can I ask this question, then: On what basis does the Lord decide who to add to the church?

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hanna..... one more question. When you pray to God to save the lost, do you expect Him to violate their *free will*? When I pray to God, I ask Him to violate their free will and to change their hearts. I expect He can do that to whom ever He wills.

 

[Blammo]

Hanna..... one more question. When you pray to God to save the lost, do you expect Him to violate their *free will*? When I pray to God, I ask Him to violate their free will and to change their hearts. I expect He can do that to whom ever He wills.

If they were elect before the foundation of the world (as the word of God says) how can you expect God to answer this prayer? Would He be aware of your prayer before the foundation of the world, and make sure He elects that person before the foundation of the world, in answer to your prayer?

 

[Brother Bob]

Can I ask this question, then: On what basis does the Lord decide who to add to the church?

Belief that Jesus is the Christ from the heart and all your being. Not as Satan believed but to believe from the heart which includes to be sorrow you sinned and to listen to the Spirit of God.

 

[russell55]

If they were elect before the foundation of the world (as the word of God says) how can you expect God to answer this prayer? Would He be aware of your prayer before the foundation of the world, and make sure He elects that person before the foundation of the world, in answer to your prayer?

In addition to choosing people for salvation before the foundation of the world, God also chooses the means by which that salvation will come about. So yes, God would be aware of the prayer, but he would be aware of it as part of his plan for the salvation of that elect person. It would be one of the events he has ordained to work in, and in response to, in order to bring about the salvation of that elect person.

 

[Brother Bob]

May God bless you Hanna, and all this debating don't turn you off to Christ. The Calvinist are holding back here and not telling you, that they believe you can't be turned off, that if God has chosen you, then you will be saved, regardless of what you do.

I say and the Bible says "You must believe that Jesus is the Christ from the depths of your heart and be born again."

Man is dead in that He cannot understand the truth. This does not mean his ears do not work. It does not mean man is stupid. It means that he hears but does not understand the need of salvation.

But they believe this same man will understand when Jesus says "depart from me ye workers of iniquity for I never knew you".

 

[Blammo]

In addition to choosing people for salvation before the foundation of the world, God also chooses the means by which that salvation will come about. So yes, God would be aware of the prayer, but he would be aware of it as part of his plan for the salvation of that elect person. It would be one of the events he has ordained to work in, and in response to, in order to bring about the salvation of that elect person.

So, if I feel compelled to pray for someone, but I don't do it, it is not necessarily disobedience, because God did not ordain my prayer. On the same note, if I do pray for someone, it is not necessarly obedience, God ordained it. In other words: Prayers will be said or not said, it matters not, God is not moved one way or the other.

 

[reformedbeliever]

If they were elect before the foundation of the world (as the word of God says) how can you expect God to answer this prayer? Would He be aware of your prayer before the foundation of the world, and make sure He elects that person before the foundation of the world, in answer to your prayer?

Absolutely Blammo. He has not only decreed all that would happen, He has decreed our prayers as a means of accomplishing His purposes. That does not mean that He responds to our prayers like a genie when we rub a bottle. Our prayers should be in line with God's will..... everytime. When I pray... I'm really alligning myself with God's will. I try anyway!:laugh:

 

[reformedbeliever]

So, if I feel compelled to pray for someone, but I don't do it, it is not necessarily disobedience, because God did not ordain my prayer. On the same note, if I do pray for someone, it is not necessarly obedience, God ordained it. In other words: Prayers will be said or not said, it matters not, God is not moved one way or the other.

Blammo, don't you believe that God ordains all that happens? Don't you believe in Divine providence? We are responsible for our ommision of prayer, God is not. When we pray we will be rewarded for it. How can I bring together the providence of God and the responsibility of man? I can't. They are an antinomy. Two seemingly opposing truths. The Bible teaches it, and so do I. We will have to ask God how that works someday!raying:

 

[Blammo]

Absolutely Blammo. He has not only decreed all that would happen, He has decreed our prayers as a means of accomplishing His purposes. That does not mean that He responds to our prayers like a genie when we rub a bottle. Our prayers should be in line with God's will..... everytime. When I pray... I'm really alligning myself with God's will. I try anyway!:laugh:

Why do you try? Don't you believe God can sovereignly cause you to obey correctly?

 

[Blammo]

Blammo, don't you believe that God ordains all that happens? Don't you believe in Divine providence? We are responsible for our ommision of prayer, God is not. When we pray we will be rewarded for it. How can I bring together the providence of God and the responsibility of man? I can't. They are an antinomy. Two seemingly opposing truths. The Bible teaches it, and so do I. We will have to ask God how that works someday!raying:

Okay. So, using the same logic, what about salvation?

 

[reformedbeliever]

May God bless you Hanna, and all this debating don't turn you off to Christ. The Calvinist are holding back here and not telling you, that they believe you can't be turned off, that if God has chosen you, then you will be saved, regardless of what you do.

Another dishonest misrepresentation. When will you stop with the dishonesty Bro. Bob?

We believe that if God has chosen you Hanna, you will be saved, that is true. We also believe that we have to respond positively to the Gospel, unlike what Bro. Bob has misrepresented. We believe that all that God has chosen will come to Him. John 6:37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

 

[russell55]

Belief that Jesus is the Christ from the heart and all your being. Not as Satan believed but to believe from the heart which includes to be sorrow you sinned and to listen to the Spirit of God.

There's where I begin to have a problem with what you are saying. Not that I con't believe that those who are saved have to believe. After all, we receive salvation through the instrument or means of faith, so faith is necessary to salvation.

But if you say that God decides who to add to the church on the basis of their own belief in Christ, then you have made faith the grounds (or basis, same thing) for salvation rather than the means of salvation.

The only grounds or basis for our salvation is Christ's work. "Christ alone" is one of the truths that makes us different from Roman Catholics. The whole basis for our salvation is Christ's work alone, and not Christ's work plus our work, or even Christ's work plus our faith.

Our faith is necessary for salvation as the means by which it is received, but it cannot be the determining factor in our salvation (or the basis by which God decides who to save), or else Christ work is not the only basis for our salvation.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Why do you try? Don't you believe God can sovereignly cause you to obey correctly?

If it is HIs will.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Okay. So, using the same logic, what about salvation?

What about it? I'm not sure what you are asking.