A question about Calvinisum

[reformedbeliever]

I am rading and learning. And I have a question. Is it possible that the Holy Spirit may give all people an opportunity to be saved? Seeing it is the will of God that none should perish, wouldn't that make sense?

Well Hanna... I will not put God in a box and say that the Holy Spirit can not save some native in the farthest reaches of the jungle. I say that God can do anything that is not against His Word or nature. I have addressed the question of whether God is willing for anyone to perish... 2Peter 3:9. Scroll back and look.

 

[MB]

Hi Hanna;

That no amount of prayer or witnessing will make any difference because God does not/will not/did not choose them?

If this is true then all things are not possible with God.

Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

When men say some men are predestined for hell. Ask them about the possibilities of God.
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

RB,

Where does it say in Scripture that God has ordained ALL things? I can find Scripture support for God ordaining certain things. But I can also find certain things in Scripture that were not ordained of God.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Well for one Blammo, and it does not use the word decree, but Isaiah 46:10. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
This seems to say that all God's purposes will stand. I don't have time at this moment as we are preparing to go and evalgelize a neighborhood at 5:30. I'll get back to this though. I ask for help from others too..... if anyone would help with this. 1 John 2:16 is speaking of worldly things... and they are not of the Father, but yet He allows them. Not sure where you are going there. Grace and peace

 

[russell55]

:laugh: You first!!!

I think God's eternal plan includes every single thing that comes to pass. "He accomplishes all things after the counsel of his will." In other words, the counsel of God's will that he accomplishes includes all things.

In a sense, everything, seeing that God had foreknowledge of all things before creation. On the other hand: Is forknowledge the same as foreordination?

I'd say so. If creation itself originated in God's mind, then what was known by him about creation before he created also originated in his mind. He wasn't taking in information about creation, but producing it. So God's foreknowledge is more like a foreplan or forethought than foresight.

As you stated above, "sinful actions come about by way of God's permission", in other words He did not "plan" them (though He did plan for them).

I think this is another false dichotomy. I think God chooses what sinful actions to permit, and he isn't arbitrary in his choice of what sinful actions to permit. He chooses particular sinful actions for good reason. If his choices are not arbitrary, but reasoned or rational ones, then I'd say that's planning. God is making choices about what will happen, and that collection of choices, which includes every single thing that will come about in the history of creation, is God's eternal plan.

 

[russell55]

Where does it say in Scripture that God has ordained ALL things?

Ordained is just a way of saying that God planned something. I'd say that Ephesians 1:11 tells us that God ordains all things. The counsel of God's will (or his plan) includes all things.

 

[Blammo]

Well for one Blammo, and it does not use the word decree, but Isaiah 46:10. Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
This seems to say that all God's purposes will stand. I don't have time at this moment as we are preparing to go and evalgelize a neighborhood at 5:30. I'll get back to this though. I ask for help from others too..... if anyone would help with this. 1 John 2:16 is speaking of worldly things... and they are not of the Father, but yet He allows them. Not sure where you are going there. Grace and peace

You and I agree that God is omnipotent. Nothing is beyond His power and might. We also agree that God allows certain things. Were am I going with this? God's plan is perfect and His purpose will be accomplished. But not every little detail is part of God's plan or purpose. If I walk down the sidewalk and step in gum, there is a good chance God did not cause that to happen. I am there, the sidewalk is there, and the gum is there because of God. But God probably did not cause my foot to end up in the gum. He allowed it, but did not plan it. (Although there are times when I deserve to step in gum. These are the times God probably did plan it.)

 

[russell55]

He allowed it, but did not plan it.

Did God have a reason for allowing it?

 

[reformedbeliever]

You and I agree that God is omnipotent. Nothing is beyond His power and might. We also agree that God allows certain things. Were am I going with this? God's plan is perfect and His purpose will be accomplished. But not every little detail is part of God's plan or purpose. If I walk down the sidewalk and step in gum, there is a good chance God did not cause that to happen. I am there, the sidewalk is there, and the gum is there because of God. But God probably did not cause my foot to end up in the gum. He allowed it, but did not plan it. (Although there are times when I deserve to step in gum. These are the times God probably did plan it.)

Quickly and I have to go. Well you know, a bird does not fall or a hair from your head that He is not aware of.

Here are a few verses.
Psalms 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
Psalms 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand.
Isaiah 43:13 "Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"
Isaiah 46:11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned {it, surely} I will do it.
Daniel 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And {among} the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'
Acts 4:27-28
27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Romans 11:33-34
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?
Ephesians 1:9-11
9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, {that is,} the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
Psalms 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
Job 33:13 "Why do you complain against Him That He does not give an account of all His doings?
Job 23:13 "But He is unique and who can turn Him? And {what} His soul desires, that He does.
Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand.
Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God, For who is able to straighten what He has bent?
Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,
Isaiah 23:9 The LORD of hosts has planned it, to defile the pride of all beauty, To despise all the honored of the earth.
Isaiah 25:1 O LORD, You are my God; I will exalt You, I will give thanks to Your name; For You have worked wonders, Plans {formed} long ago, with perfect faithfulness.
Isaiah 37:26 "Have you not heard? Long ago I did it, From ancient times I planned it. Now I have brought it to pass, That you should turn fortified cities into ruinous heaps.
Isaiah 42:9 "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim {them} to you."
Isaiah 43:12-13
12 "It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange {god} among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God.
13 "Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?"
Isaiah 44:7 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.
Isaiah 45:21 "Declare and set forth {your case;} Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
Isaiah 48:3 "I declared the former things long ago And they went forth from My mouth, and I proclaimed them. Suddenly I acted, and they came to pass.
Isaiah 55:11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding {in the matter} for which I sent it.
Sorry if I have duplicated. There are more. Some of these may not be relevant to our discussion, if not, forgive me, I'm in a hurry. Grace an peace.

 

[Blammo]

Did God have a reason for allowing it?

I suppose so.

My Sister was at the mall the other day. She was frustrated with the crowd. She had everything she needed and was not sure why she was still there. Then she walked into another store (a bit confused by her behavior she said) and within seconds a lady began screaming because her one year old had quit breathing. Everyone in the store gathered around the lady and her daughter and simply stared, not sure what to do. My Sister ran out into the main part of the mall and called for a doctor. There was one nearby who came running. He was able to save the little girls life. What if my Sister had left the mall as she felt she should?

I believe that was divine providence. Sometimes we can know why certain things happen. I suppose there are reasons for everything, though we may not always be able to connect the dots.

 

[Brother Bob]

Absolutely Blammo. He has not only decreed all that would happen, He has decreed our prayers as a means of accomplishing His purposes. That does not mean that He responds to our prayers like a genie when we rub a bottle. Our prayers should be in line with God's will..... everytime. When I pray... I'm really alligning myself with God's will. I try anyway!:laugh:

So, if I get run over with a Mack truck, God decreed it to happen?

 

[Tom Butler]

In response to one of my posts, Allan said:
The Baptist Non-Cals believe a person can only come to Christ as the Spirit of God calls them and not at any time they choose. Again a blatant falsehood and mischaractorization concerning our beliefs that God is 'powerless' to act... God is all powerful but has of Himself established that salvation comes to those who believe while not yet alive IN Christ.

Tom says:
Allan, let's clear this up for Hanna's sake. It's not my intention to mis-state the Baptist non-Cal position. So help me out here.

Am I correct in my understanding that we are born with free will, the ability to choose?

Have I read you right that the free will to choose is not absolute? That it is dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit to call them first?

Would I be correct in concluding that you do not allow for the possibility that the Holy Spirit will withhold His calling from some--that, conversely, the Holy Spirit calls everyone?

But--can you see why I might conclude from your statement about God's omnipotence that it is inconsistent? To this extent: God is all powerful, but man's will is more powerful since it can stop God from achieving his desire that all be saved; therefore God is not all-powerful. See where I'm going with this?

I realize you don't like it characterized that way. I also know from your comment above that you see it as a distortion of the Non-cal position. But we are dealing with the dividing line that separates Cals and non-Cals--how each views God's sovereignty and man's will.

Tom said earlier:
You will hear at some point that once God elects someone, they will be saved whether they want to or not. That God forces them to be saved. And, that if someone is not elect, they can't be saved even if they want to. This, of course, is a distortion. The scripture is plain. God will save all who come to him in repentance and faith, and will save none who don't.

Allan replies:
As to your first sentence, are those who are regenerated done so because they 'want' to be?? Not according to Calvinism. If not then they ARE saved even if they don't want to be, are they not?

Tom again:
Actually, my comments were a loose paraphrase of what I have heard non-Cals actually say. It is a mis-statement of what Calvinists believe, of course. But I think you and I will agree on that last sentence, that God saves all who come in repentance and fath, saves none who don't. If I have said anything that might lead someone to conclude differently, I renounce it now.

 

[Tom Butler]

One thing that makes no sense to me in all of this is, what does it gain God to have all these "elected" people came to him because He ordained it...drafted them if you will, and it is impossible for them to reject Him.

How can that possibly glorify God?

Because otherwise, every single human being would die and go to hell. That's why it pleased God to save some. Shall we be angry because God did that?

What if God had decided to save no one? Would God be unfair? Wouldn't eternal punishment be what we deserved?

God gets glory out of this from his children (believers) because we were shown mercy when we deserved justice.

And our jaws are jacked because God showed mercy to some?

 

[Tom Butler]

One more though before heading out to Wednesday Bible study.

I think it was Hanna who asked, why is it necessary to pray to God to save someone if it's already a done deal. That elect person will be saved, anyway.

Others have already addressed this quesiton very well, but I want to turn it around on my non-Cal brothers and sisters:

Why do you pray for God to save someone? What do you say when you pray?
What good does it do to pray to a God who can't save anyone unless they permit it?

I know, I know, we're told to pray. But if we're going to pray, at least it ought to make sense to do so.

 

[Helen]

I don't think you are understanding her question, Tom.

If you build a table and it then stands up and you can put things on it, that's great. It shows you know some carpentry. But how does that bring you any great joy? You knew you could do it and you did and then you use it.

In a similar way, if God invented some people to be saved and some not to be saved and that is what happens to them, so what? That is no more than animals doing what they were created to do. Dogs behave like dogs. No big deal. Goldfish behave like goldfish. Ditto. Saved behave like saved and unsaved behave like unsaved not because of any choice of their own, according to Calvinism, but because that is what they were created to do.

No big deal. Why would there be rejoicing in heaven when the whole thing was pre-planned in terms of salvation and who would be who? God being God, one would expect Him to be able to create things to do exactly as He planned them to do. What glory in that?

That is her question. If people are functionally programmed, just as the animals are, then we really are no different from animals. How then can it be said we are created in the image of God?

 

[Helen]

About prayer, Tom. We may or may not understand how it works, but the Bible tells us that the prayers of righteous men are powerful and effective.

That would be impossible in a Calvinist world.

 

[AresMan]

So, if I get run over with a Mack truck, God decreed it to happen?

Job 14:5?
Heb 9:27?

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So, if I get run over with a Mack truck, God decreed it to happen?
Job 14:5?
Heb 9:27?Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So, if I get run over with a Mack truck, God decreed it to happen?
Job 14:5?
Heb 9:27?27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So, you think God decreed Adam to fall? This is going no where.

If God decreed me to get killed by a Mack truck then how come the Calvinist outrun the rest when the roof of a mine is starting to fall? I mean, if God decreed it what good is it to run?

1 Kings, chapter 3

"14": And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.

Pro 9:11 For by me thy days shall be multiplied, and the years of thy life shall be increased.

Deu 5:16 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

 

[Hanna]

How does the Calvinist explain the verse that says:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Jarthur001]

Well...One Calvinist got back from Bible study.

So, if I get run over with a Mack truck, God decreed it to happen?

Just as much has hurricane katrina was decreed.


Just as Jesus said of the Blind man...

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Just as the sovereignty of God was affirmed by King Nebuchadnezzar, who confessed that God "does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'" [Daniel 4:36]


Just as is in the Bible...
6The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.


22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

23That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.

24Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.

25To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Just as Job says.......Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

***All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:16).

***"Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed" (Job 14:5)

 

[AresMan]

If God decreed me to get killed by a Mack truck then how come the Calvinist outrun the rest when the roof of a mine is starting to fall? I mean, if God decreed it what good is it to run?

You as a human before death do not know what God has "decreed."

There seems to be an assumption that the "decrees" (perfect/complete will) of God and the willful choices of man are somehow at odds, in conflict. This is a big misunderstanding. The willful choices of man are not in conflict with God's perfect will but rather reflect the providence of God's perfect will.

David of his own willful choice sinned in committing adultery with Bathsheba, yet God decreed through this act that Solomon, the wisest king who ever lived, would reign as his heir. Do you think this was an accident?

The men who nailed Jesus to the Cross of their own willful choice sinned in crucifying Jesus, yet God decreed from eternity past that Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world. If God decreed in Genesis 3:15 that Satan would bruise Jesus' heel, could it have been possible that Jesus had not been slain? Of course, we wouldn't believe that God took "good" men and forced them against their will making them kill Jesus unintentionally. Maybe you are misunderstanding something.

If you get hit by a Mack truck, would your family sob that God was taken by surprise and in His less than sovereignty could not prevent it, and no omnipotent God was in control? Or would they, after the time for mourning, trust that this sad event was part of God's perfect will and He may have used it for His glory (possibly the salvation of others)?