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Y
Yelsew
Guest
BobRyan,
All seed is dead in Christ regardless of what "ground" it falls on. It seems to me that you are pointing favorably toward Calvinism rather than Arminianism.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:
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Which is why the Luke 8 scenario of "Rocky Ground" and "Thorny ground" with the "dead in sin - coming to LIFE and growing up - and then dying back" is so "significant" for the Arminian POV.
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The ground is dead in all cases - the seed is the gospel sown. When LIFE springs out of the earth - we have a LIFGIVING supernatural act. IN the case of the Rocky and Thorny ground - the DEAD in sin - SPRINGS to life.
Even the Calvinist has to agree here.
But then in the story - the calvinistically-unthinkable happens - the LIVING DIE. They FAIL to REMAIN alive. They FAIL to CONTINUE growing into Christ over time.
"Unthinkable!" says the Calvinist
"I told you so" says the Arminian.
See?
In Christ,
Bob
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Which is why the Luke 8 scenario of "Rocky Ground" and "Thorny ground" with the "dead in sin - coming to LIFE and growing up - and then dying back" is so "significant" for the Arminian POV.
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Maybe my point was not clear.
The ground is dead in all cases - the seed is the gospel sown. When LIFE springs out of the earth - we have a LIFGIVING supernatural act. IN the case of the Rocky and Thorny ground - the DEAD in sin - SPRINGS to life.
Even the Calvinist has to agree here.
But then in the story - the calvinistically-unthinkable happens - the LIVING DIE. They FAIL to REMAIN alive. They FAIL to CONTINUE growing into Christ over time.
"Unthinkable!" says the Calvinist
"I told you so" says the Arminian.
See?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Post deleted for failing to be on topic. Bob, you have returned after a long absence but the standards are still the same. Keep your posts focused on the issues, not on people. If you have personal problems with someone, then take it up with them personally. Do not carry it on here.
[ April 12, 2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
[ April 12, 2003, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
If you are trying to convince any of the dead nature of man, even as an Arminian, you are barking up the wrong tree, or either hunting with the wrong dog altogether. It is widely disputed among our Arminian brethren that man is dead.
So unless you are meaning that man is partially alive, but in a dead universe then your wasting time trying to convince Yelsew of the deadness of anything.
Even this doesn't work because God's word supposedly does not address the redemption of the universe.
Bro. Dallas
So unless you are meaning that man is partially alive, but in a dead universe then your wasting time trying to convince Yelsew of the deadness of anything.
Even this doesn't work because God's word supposedly does not address the redemption of the universe.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I'm afraid you do not understand the process. The seed is dead, that which is sown is dead. It is the Ground that causes the dead to come to life. You can put seed in a jar for centuries, and as long is it receives no nutrients, water and sunlight the seed remains dead. It is only when the seed is "sown" that it can produce life, and only when the ground is furtile that the life is sustained to the point of producing an abundance of seed.
The bible is not the seeds, but rather the sower's sack from which the seeds of truth are sown. And it is only when those seeds are taken into furtile minds and spirits that the seeds germinate and grow into spiritual truth.
The Holy Spirit does not make the ground furtile. God already made the ground furtile in the creation. The Holy Spirit waters the soil so that the seed can grow. So long as the Holy Spirit is allowed to continue watering, the new life continues to grow and thrive. When the Holy Spirit is spurned the watering stops and the plant dies.
The bible is not the seeds, but rather the sower's sack from which the seeds of truth are sown. And it is only when those seeds are taken into furtile minds and spirits that the seeds germinate and grow into spiritual truth.
The Holy Spirit does not make the ground furtile. God already made the ground furtile in the creation. The Holy Spirit waters the soil so that the seed can grow. So long as the Holy Spirit is allowed to continue watering, the new life continues to grow and thrive. When the Holy Spirit is spurned the watering stops and the plant dies.
Wait a minute, it has been a while since my FFA days, slow down there Farmer Brown.
you said the seed is dead, the ground is alive? The seed has life within itself; yet this life is not of itself; actually, if we wanted to carry this deep enough, more than two or three inches of plowing, we would find that life is only with God, only that which he wills to receive this life will do so.
There is no way around it my friend. it does not depend upon whether I like it or even agree with it, it is a matter of the source of life, it cannot be the ground, why, because man is taken from the ground and even formed he had no life in him until God breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living soul.
it is amazing what you will subject to the authority of man when God has not so subjected it as such.
God has power over life. If the seed is the good word then how is it dead if it is from God? How can the ground bring forth of its own will? Did God not create?
You are right. I don't understand the process. Do I need to throw away my Bible to gain the correct understanding? I really like it; the life that is found within its pages has sustained me many times over and will continue to do so as I walk in this dead world, but it has done this only by the power of our Holy and Righteous God and none other power, no, not even man's pleas convinced me. But when my Lord and my God got a hold of me there were no men around to stand between me and he, none to intercede, there was nothing but my spiritual depravity and nakedness, nothing but my destitute nature and God. I understood why Adam hid himself from the voice of God in the Garden, for He did not come to call upon me with a cordial neighborly visit, nor did he do so with Adam, but when He visits He will visit our sins upon us. We must learn this first, the Gospel is first bad news before it can be good news, it first must tear down the foundation of the old man, or else there is no room for the foundation of the new. It must first be the turning and plowing of the old sod ground in order that the seed be sowed into the new earth (which is Adam in the Hebrew), remember the death of the old, and the birth of the new; all the trash, even former crops (which would be vain attempts at religiosity) must be turned under and the fresh, the new turned out on top, then is the disking which will take the hard clods and grind them down into a fine powder, you are right, I don't understand, nor recognize the process you often speak of, but I do know the process of God.
Bro. Dallas
you said the seed is dead, the ground is alive? The seed has life within itself; yet this life is not of itself; actually, if we wanted to carry this deep enough, more than two or three inches of plowing, we would find that life is only with God, only that which he wills to receive this life will do so.
There is no way around it my friend. it does not depend upon whether I like it or even agree with it, it is a matter of the source of life, it cannot be the ground, why, because man is taken from the ground and even formed he had no life in him until God breathed the breath of life into him and he became a living soul.
it is amazing what you will subject to the authority of man when God has not so subjected it as such.
God has power over life. If the seed is the good word then how is it dead if it is from God? How can the ground bring forth of its own will? Did God not create?
You are right. I don't understand the process. Do I need to throw away my Bible to gain the correct understanding? I really like it; the life that is found within its pages has sustained me many times over and will continue to do so as I walk in this dead world, but it has done this only by the power of our Holy and Righteous God and none other power, no, not even man's pleas convinced me. But when my Lord and my God got a hold of me there were no men around to stand between me and he, none to intercede, there was nothing but my spiritual depravity and nakedness, nothing but my destitute nature and God. I understood why Adam hid himself from the voice of God in the Garden, for He did not come to call upon me with a cordial neighborly visit, nor did he do so with Adam, but when He visits He will visit our sins upon us. We must learn this first, the Gospel is first bad news before it can be good news, it first must tear down the foundation of the old man, or else there is no room for the foundation of the new. It must first be the turning and plowing of the old sod ground in order that the seed be sowed into the new earth (which is Adam in the Hebrew), remember the death of the old, and the birth of the new; all the trash, even former crops (which would be vain attempts at religiosity) must be turned under and the fresh, the new turned out on top, then is the disking which will take the hard clods and grind them down into a fine powder, you are right, I don't understand, nor recognize the process you often speak of, but I do know the process of God.
Bro. Dallas
Y
Yelsew
Guest
The point being that life as God made it does not spring forth unless the elements are present to cause that life to spring forth.
Like I said with my seeds in a jar illustration, and like geologists have discovered in surveying ancient tombs and caves, seeds do not spring forth on a time basis, but on the basis of all the right ingredients and environment being present.
And that was the point.
Like I said with my seeds in a jar illustration, and like geologists have discovered in surveying ancient tombs and caves, seeds do not spring forth on a time basis, but on the basis of all the right ingredients and environment being present.
And that was the point.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Ah! But God is a Geologist, He created the earth and all that is in it! He Spoke the language!