Brother Bob
New Member
By the power of God!! He said it, I believe it.
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A question about hell
- Thread starter Emily25069
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That’s right, except that had Adam eaten of it he would have “lived forever”. But according to you he would live forever anyway. In my opinion the Tree of Life is crucial in understanding immortality and final punishment. When is the last time you heard a sermon on the Tree of Life?
Nor does it disprove mine, that is the point. You have no idea what the Tree of Life provided, I hypothesize that it brought immortality. Prove me wrong. Prove Adam was created to exist forever.
Eternal existence is the opposite of eternal non-existence. Eternal life is the opposite of eternal death. The results of annhiliation are the opposite of the results of salvation.
Many if not most theologians and commentators agree that it is a parable, even those who hold to the traditional view. If you wish to make the case that it was an actual occurrence then I have several questions for you regarding the story.
Death can mean several things depending on the context.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once. But when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
athanasia
Thayer Definition:
1)undying, immortality, everlasting
athanasia
Strongs
ath-an-as-ee'-ah
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and G2288; deathlessness: - immortality.
Immortality is “deathlessness”, “everlasting” and “undying”. Explain how that doesn’t fit the lost in your view?
Again I would like to see this Lexicon where you get these definitions. Those definitions come from a pre-supposition of what one thinks final punishment is.
I take it you didn’t find a Lexicon that establishes “perish” and “destroy” simply means separation from God?
I have no idea.
Brother Bob
New Member
hmmmmm Scripture says same thing about Satan as the unbelievers and you don't know about Satan but you know about the others?
Revelation, chapter 20
"10": And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
"11": And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
"12": And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"13": And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
"14": And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
"15": And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation, chapter 20
"10": And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
"11": And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
"12": And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"13": And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
"14": And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
"15": And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Marcia
Active Member
Grasshopper, the meaning of immortality has to be understood in the context of the Bible. If it means that it is life after death and that believers are given this, then that is life with God because to be apart from God is not life. But the latter does not necessarily equate with unconsciousness or annihilation. That is your presupposition. You are assuming that immortality means merely to be conscious after death when the Bible seems to indicate that it means life with God after death. Therefore, separation from God after death would mean one does not have immortality, even though they are still conscious. They are existing but do not have life with God.
Since the rich man is conscious after death in Luke 16 and is suffering, it is reasonable to conclude that there are those who suffer consciously after death and are separated from God after death. Therefore, words such as "perish" and "destroy" do not necessarily mean annihilation. In fact, the word for "perish" in Jn. 3.16 is used throughout the NT to mean a variety of things. I don't see where it must mean annihilation.
If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, he would have lived physically forever. But since he had sinned, God did not allow this. This is my understanding so far of the Tree of Life. I don't think the Tree of Life is necessarily the only thing to look at it - we have to look at the whole Bible. There is no indication, especially in the NT (and the OT should be interpreted in light of the NT), that anyone is annihilated. In fact, indications are the opposite.
Since the rich man is conscious after death in Luke 16 and is suffering, it is reasonable to conclude that there are those who suffer consciously after death and are separated from God after death. Therefore, words such as "perish" and "destroy" do not necessarily mean annihilation. In fact, the word for "perish" in Jn. 3.16 is used throughout the NT to mean a variety of things. I don't see where it must mean annihilation.
If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, he would have lived physically forever. But since he had sinned, God did not allow this. This is my understanding so far of the Tree of Life. I don't think the Tree of Life is necessarily the only thing to look at it - we have to look at the whole Bible. There is no indication, especially in the NT (and the OT should be interpreted in light of the NT), that anyone is annihilated. In fact, indications are the opposite.
Does Satan have a soul?
True, but where do you get your definition that immortality is just living with God after death?
Scripture indicates it is both for the believer. Your position takes a definition of immortality that is not from any source I can find. You seem to take verses that you think indicate people burn forever then define immortality around that view.
Again, you may be right but where do you get this definition of immortality? It seems you are creating a definition that fits your view.
Again, a parable of the Kingdom not eternal destiny.
Does it mean separation from God anywhere? I agree that context is important in how it is to be viewed, but I looked at all the verses where “perish” is used and none would indicate to me that annihilation is not a possibility.
Very good. So what you are saying is when God created Adam he did not create Him live forever physically, he needed the Tree for that purpose. Therefore physical death is not a result of Adam’s fall. Wanna stick with that? I happen to agree that Adam was not created to physically live forever.
Yes, but you must start in Genesis with the creation of man and the Tree of Life. You can’t ignore it which is what most do.
I disagree. I think you ignore the usage of passages in the OT that are used in the same manner in the NT.
Brother Bob
New Member
What kind of answer is that. So you believe there is more ways to live forever except Jesus?
Define "live forever".
Brother Bob
New Member
I really don't know what you are saying, "define live forever"? Are we playing games or what? Do you know what is is? 
Main Entry: 1for·ev·er
Pronunciation: f&-'rev-&r, fo-; Southern often f&-'e-v&
Function: adverb
1 : for a limitless time <wants to live forever>
2 : at all times : CONTINUALLY <is forever making bad puns>
Main Entry: 1for·ev·er
Pronunciation: f&-'rev-&r, fo-; Southern often f&-'e-v&
Function: adverb
1 : for a limitless time <wants to live forever>
2 : at all times : CONTINUALLY <is forever making bad puns>
I'm not playing games, your definitions have been different than mine.
My whole point has been that those outside of Christ do not "live forever" using your above definition.
Your position is people do live forever even if they reject Christ. This is why your question is puzzeling to me. So I will ask you your own question:
So you believe there is more ways to live forever except Jesus?
Brother Bob
New Member
Very good Grasshopper
I see a play of words on here as some are afraid to say they live forever but I truly believe the sinner will have a body that will pray for death but death will flee from them which comes from God himself. I know when he come that all in the graves shall come forth some unto everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.
Mark, chapter 3
"29": But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
I don't intend to mince words. I think they will die but never die and the smoke of their torment will accend forever.
I see a play of words on here as some are afraid to say they live forever but I truly believe the sinner will have a body that will pray for death but death will flee from them which comes from God himself. I know when he come that all in the graves shall come forth some unto everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.
Mark, chapter 3
"29": But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
I don't intend to mince words. I think they will die but never die and the smoke of their torment will accend forever.
I have no idea. </font>[/QUOTE]Then why are you arguing that there is no eternal torment in the Lake of fire if you have no idea?
I would recommend that you read Rev. 20:10 and please note that two regular men are mentioned in the passage as well as Satan being "tormented day and night for ever and ever."
That should give you a great idea.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Very good Grasshopper
I see a play of words on here as some are afraid to say they live forever but I truly believe the sinner will have a body that will pray for death but death will flee from them which comes from God himself. I know when he come that all in the graves shall come forth some unto everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.
Mark, chapter 3
"29": But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
I don't intend to mince words. I think they will die but never die and the smoke of their torment will accend forever.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Mr 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mr 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mr 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
That "living soul" God breathed into man was meant to live as long as God lives, and it will.
"Eternal life" of the soul is that "blessing or curse" set before man.
So you believe there are ways to live forever other than Jesus.Very good Grasshopper
I see a play of words on here as some are afraid to say they live forever but I truly believe the sinner will have a body that will pray for death but death will flee from them which comes from God himself. I know when he come that all in the graves shall come forth some unto everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.
Because he asked about Satan, not man.
Are you consistent in your interpretation of scripture?
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of Jehovah's vengeance, the year to repay for the fighting against Zion.
Isa 34:9 And its streams shall be turned into pitch, and its dust to brimstone, and its land shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be put out night or day; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none passes through it forever and forever.
Is Edom still burning? Is the smoke still ascending?
Are the people of Sodom still fornicating?
Sounds just like what is in the New Heavens and New Earth:
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
What do you do with this verse?
Very nice, but not biblical.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Nephesh is the word for soul. It is also used for animals:
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (NEPHESH) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
So were the animal also meant to live as long as God did?
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Ec 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
God's spirit gives all life, but man is made in "God images" that means living forever, and being held accountable/Judged for his actions,
This world and everything in/on it will one day burn and be gone forever, the only thing here that will survive for eternity is the "souls of people".
animals have a "spirit" that gives life, not a "soul".
Ec 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
God's spirit gives all life, but man is made in "God images" that means living forever, and being held accountable/Judged for his actions,
This world and everything in/on it will one day burn and be gone forever, the only thing here that will survive for eternity is the "souls of people".
animals have a "spirit" that gives life, not a "soul".
What do you base that statement on? Show me where being created in God’s image means “living forever”.
Ecc 1:4 A generation passes away, and a generation comes; but the earth remains forever.
Not according to scripture, animals are a living soul.
What do you base that statement on? Show me where being created in God’s image means “living forever”.
Ecc 1:4 A generation passes away, and a generation comes; but the earth remains forever.
Not according to scripture, animals are a living soul. </font>[/QUOTE]I guess that's why Jesus separates the "sheep and Goats", uh??
I guess
Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Want to guess where the rich man is still at today???
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Want to guess where the rich man is still at today???