A question about Noah...

[Skandelon]

The scripture teaches that the people of the earth had grown increasingly wicked and it angered the Lord, but that he found favor with Noah:

6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. -Gen 6

Why did Noah find favor in the eyes of the Lord? Why did all others grieve God?

Is it the view of Calvinists that God effectually caused Noah to be 'favorable' so that He would find favor with him? And is it Calvinists view that God grieved and expressed his anger toward those he condemned from birth (due to the Fall) for their acting exactly as they were born to act?

Clearly God expresses his desire for the people to obey and not act this way. So, if that is the case why wouldn't God simply effectually cause them to act as Noah did? Is God just acting?

 

[Jim1999]

Keep in mind, under absolute sovereignty, lies the Permissive Will of God.."thus far and no further..."
Noah behaved accordingly before the flood.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Skandelon]

Keep in mind, under absolute sovereignty, lies the Permissive Will of God.."thus far and no further..."
Noah behaved accordingly before the flood.

Hi Jim. Please expound. What do you mean that Noah behaved accordingly before the flood? According to what God had "permitted?" Explain?

 

[annsni]

I thought this was about Noah and not Calvinism.

There's degrees of evil. My kids can disobey or they can DISOBEY. There's a difference in the gravity of each one. So man sinned or he SINNED. Either way, it breaks God's heart.

 

[freeatlast]

The scripture teaches that the people of the earth had grown increasingly wicked and it angered the Lord, but that he found favor with Noah:



Why did Noah find favor in the eyes of the Lord? Why did all others grieve God?

Because Noah had faith.

 

[Amy.G]

Noah found favor the same way as Abraham. He believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The others rebelled against God to the point there was no hope for them to repent. (Romans 1)

 

[freeatlast]

Noah found favor the same way as Abraham. He believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The others rebelled against God to the point there was no hope for them to repent. (Romans 1)

Yes Amy, sinning away the day of grace used to be preached in the churches but not any more.

 

[Jim1999]

Noah made every attempt to obey God, and this is all that God demanded of man so far as living for Him is concerned. This has nothing to do with man's fallen nature.

Man is not always as evil as he can be, but remains condemned by the Fall until redeemed by God. We see some of his fallen nature in action after the flood. This is theology and not just calvinism. Calvinism includes infant baptism, and I do not!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[percho]

the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

From before Adam was created God had a purpose relative to the above which wasn't going to take place for a long long time in the future but required God to use his created being and those born from that created being to bring that purpose about. Noah is one of those called for that faithful purpose of God.

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

To bring about that purpose even though the Lamb has been slain: God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

After this, taking out a people for his name, I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: that the rest of men may seek the Lord and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,


That and will include Noah and all others of the elect, those called for a purpose, which BTW includes salvation, that is redeemed from the death appointed to all.

 

[JesusFan]

The scripture teaches that the people of the earth had grown increasingly wicked and it angered the Lord, but that he found favor with Noah:

Why did Noah find favor in the eyes of the Lord? Why did all others grieve God?[/QUOTE

Question....

Did Noah have faith in God and His promises inherit within himself?
did God credit him because he 'tried his best"?

ALL other people were evil/wicked/sinful, why NOT Noah, was it something JUST found in Him, or was it due to God choosing him based upon His grace and purposes ?

]Is it the view of Calvinists that God effectually caused Noah to be 'favorable' so that He would find favor with him? And is it Calvinists view that God grieved and expressed his anger toward those he condemned from birth (due to the Fall) for their acting exactly as they were born to act?

[QUOTE

ONLY reason Noah found favor before God was that god already had the Cross coming/done in His mind!

Noah had faith in God and His promise to him, and that faith was the gift of God......





]

Clearly God expresses his desire for the people to obey and not act this way. So, if that is the case why wouldn't God simply effectually cause them to act as Noah did? Is God just acting?

[/QUOTE

]

cannot know the mind and Will of God fully in this manner, can you?

DO know that ALL people were always acting out sinful desires willfully, reprobabte and evil race, who God judged and condemned, but kept His promise of a coming Messiah alive by redeeming Noah and his family by act of mercy and Grace!

 

[Skandelon]

JF, dang nab it man, learn to use the quote feature and edit it when you mess up!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[12strings]

Skandelon,

You seem to differ with classical arminianism on some points. Is there a name for your belief system regarding soteriology and God's soverienty? (other than Christianity) And are there any scholars we could read that you agree with?

 

[JesusFan]

JF, dang nab it man, learn to use the quote feature and edit it when you mess up!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

You must have been praying for patience, and I am the answer to your prayers!

 

[Skandelon]

Skandelon,

You seem to differ with classical arminianism on some points.

And I don't know a single Calvinist who agrees with every point that Calvin taught either. There are Supras, Infras, four pointers and many various ways of explaining each of the differing points. MacArthur calls out Pink on several issues and vice versa, but yet they are all call "Calvinistic" or "Reformed."

So, yes there are going to be various types of "Arminians" out there too. I've always had a great respect for Adam Clarke though I'm sure we would disagree on some points too.

If you have a question about a particular point I'd be glad to respond. The point regarding "extra/prevenient Grace" is one that I may explain a bit differently than some, but it is because I believe the means of Grace is THROUGH the GOSPEL alone (as would even some Cals). So, even if I affirm the concept of "prevenient grace" I wouldn't ever separate it from the means of the gospel. So, I would be pointing to the work of the gospel as being the means of "prevenient grace" thus giving man the ability to be reconciled once invited by God to do so. I see no reason biblically to believe that an enemy of God is unable to respond to an appeal to be reconciled sent for that purpose by God to all the world.

The key to understanding this perspective is believing that the Gospel itself IS a gracious work of the Holy Spirit. If you accept that truth then there is no contradiction in saying that it requires a 'prior gracious work of the HS" to allow someone to believe...that gracious work is the sending of the Gospel...something that hadn't been sent at the time John 6 took place, by the way.

 

[beameup]

Why did Noah find favor in the eyes of the Lord? Why did all others grieve God?

oiketerion is the key.

2 Cor 5:2 - For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven. "house" is oiketerion = heavenly body

Jude 6 - And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the
judgment of the great day. "habitation" is oiketerion = heavenly body

The simple answer is that fallen angels were able to take on human bodies and interbreed with human women and thus to corrupt the human genome,
which resulted in hybrids (nephilim), and would have made it IMPOSSIBLE for God to provide a savior for the "seed of Adam". See Genesis 6.

That the sons of God [bene ha Elohim = Angels] saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
...the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them,...

 

[Aaron]

The scripture teaches that the people of the earth had grown increasingly wicked and it angered the Lord, but that he found favor with Noah:



Why did Noah find favor in the eyes of the Lord? Why did all others grieve God?

Is it the view of Calvinists that God effectually caused Noah to be 'favorable' so that He would find favor with him? And is it Calvinists view that God grieved and expressed his anger toward those he condemned from birth (due to the Fall) for their acting exactly as they were born to act?

Clearly God expresses his desire for the people to obey and not act this way. So, if that is the case why wouldn't God simply effectually cause them to act as Noah did? Is God just acting?

No matter how you slice it, it comes up why doth He yet find fault?

Paul took your skin off in one piece, and that's it hanging on the shed.

Noah found grace. He didn't earn grace. He wasn't entitled to it. God reserved Noah unto Himself just as the 7000 who never bowed the knee to Baal. Noah could look at the worst among him and say, "There but for the grace of God go I."

You need to learn what that means.

 

[Iconoclast]

No matter how you slice it, it comes up why doth He yet find fault?

Paul took your skin off in one piece, and that's it hanging on the shed.

Noah found grace. He didn't earn grace. He wasn't entitled to it. God reserved Noah unto Himself just as the 7000 who never bowed the knee to Baal. Noah could look at the worst among him and say, "There but for the grace of God go I."

You need to learn what that means.

Aaron...of course this is it. He was part of the Godly line preserved by God's grace....so the promised seed could come:type::type:

 

[Skandelon]

No matter how you slice it, it comes up why doth He yet find fault?

Not if the author was addressing a different context than the one your presume.

Look at these two contexts and see how BOTH of them would cause the question, "Why doth He yet find fault."

(1) A man is born cut off, hardened, and not elect. He rebells against God as determined by his natural desires, which are set against God because of God's choice to condemn him due to Adam's sin. He might cry out, "Why don't He find fault," but is that the context Paul is addressing?

(2) A man is born a sinner, knowing both good and evil. God sends him prophets, priests, kings and scriptures CLEARLY revealing Himself and His desires. God "holds out his hands" to this man, "longing to gather him, but he is unwilling." God is patient, not wanting him to perish but he continues in his rebellion growing more hardened every day to the truth that he CHOSE to trade in for a lie. God chooses to judicially harden, or blind him in his rebellion so that he cannot repent until God is able to accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through his rebellion. At the same time God hardens this rebellious man, he selects a few other guys who are just as rebellious for the noble purpose of taking the message of redemption to all the world. This person also would ask, "Why doth He still find fault?"

The difference is that the second describes the biblical context whereas the first describes the Calvinistic presumption.

I noticed in your answer regarding Noah you provide no biblical support, just systematic conjecture based upon what you think MUST be true in order to remain consistent with the man-made system you appear to hold in higher regard than the text. Revealing.

 

[JesusFan]

No matter how you slice it, it comes up why doth He yet find fault?

Paul took your skin off in one piece, and that's it hanging on the shed.

Noah found grace. He didn't earn grace. He wasn't entitled to it. God reserved Noah unto Himself just as the 7000 who never bowed the knee to Baal. Noah could look at the worst among him and say, "There but for the grace of God go I."

You need to learn what that means.

WHAT exactly though allowed Noah/Abraham etc find "favor with the Lord?"

Was it their behavior/good works/ willingness to obey God?

OR

was it the same way ANY of us would?

By the Cross of Christ, and God applying that Grace towards us?

 

[12strings]

God chooses to judicially harden, or blind him in his rebellion so that he cannot repent until God is able to accomplish a greater redemptive purpose through his rebellion. At the same time God hardens this rebellious man, he selects a few other guys who are just as rebellious for the noble purpose of taking the message of redemption to all the world.

Which of the following represents your view:

So are you saying God elected to save the prophets, paul, the disciples for the purpose of taking his message to the world; but that they were special cases, and that God does not deal that way with most of humanity?

OR>>>

Are you saying God knew that they would accept Him, and from those he foresaw would accept him, he chose/elected some to be special messengers. (And would this view presume that God knew that Saul/Paul would have at some point turned to God, but God Elected to confront him on the road to damascus in order to initiate his ministry...and that had God not chosen him for this special ministry, He would have turned to God on his own later?