A question concerning gluttony

Here are answers to your questions, in the order you asked them.

I no longer grow marijuana in NC. I attend law school in NC, and it isn't worth the legal ramifications if I got caught. I wouldn't have any objection to doing it otherwise though, I would see it as peaceful civil disobedience, like the civil rights proponents or anti-slavery men and women who have brought this country closer to the truth. I did grow marijuana last summer in California with a roomate, licensed by the state medical marijuana initiative as caregivers. We also were prescribed marijuana by a doctor who, with advice of legal counsel, found that the law allowed him to prescribe marijuana for aches, pains, bursitis, and arthritis. (I suffer from recurring bursitis).

Medicinal use still has side effects related to creativity; especially with music and artistic endeavors. Many of the great jazz musicians used marijuana. Sadly many also used and abused other non-naturally occurring drugs, eventually being killed by some of them.

Unless you don't believe Jesus is God, I'm not sure why you say, "God created the plants, not Jesus."
"The firstborn of every creature: for by (Jesus) were all things created that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Col 1).

Experiments *have* been done to try to see if it is possible to overdose on marijuana. They have basically found it would take as much effort to overdose on iceberg lettuce. The plant simply doesn't case death even in extreme amounts (like a mouse being given 10x times its body weight, the equivalent of if I vaporized or ate 1,500 lbs of marijuana). It is therefore impossible to overdose because it is impossible for one person to smoke or eat 15 lbs. of cannabis, much less 1,500lbs.

As far as short term memory and things like that when under the influence... yes, marijuana has mental effects... just like alcohol, the more you use the more profound the become, and with light use they typically don't present themselves. I've seen no studies about ED with moderate cannabis use, and it certainly has not been my experience. And once again, studies that attempted to link the two would not be allowed to control for other drugs in the United States, making any attempt at such a study practically useless anyway.

 

If a cop sees a plant in your yard he could ask to see your license, and then he may check to see that you aren't growing more then the amount you are licensed to grow for the medical patients listed on your license. Caregivers typically are required to grow in private though, behind fences or indoors with energy efficient fluorescent lighting.

Its not like you would drive by a house and see cannabis plants popping out of everywhere. Growers are responsible people providing a service for people with, very often, debilitating diseases and cancers. These are people who don't want the side effects and extreme physical addiction that comes with the use of the non-natural, manufactured and chemically processed opioid based pain-killers the White House would rather have them buy at a high price from the large drug companies.

Such pain killers result in a very high tolerance very quickly. Couple that with the fact that it often takes a relatively small amount to cause death, and then you see why they are so dangerous. People "overdose" on things like morphine and oxycotin and accidentally kill themselves all the time. Again, that is because those medicines build up a tolerance in the body very quickly so that it takes much more to achieve any pain relief at all, and they are also extremely lethal if just a little bit too much is taken. If you think tylenol is dangerous b/c 10-15 can kill you, you haven't seen anything.

Marijuana's proven side effects, the worst of which is perhaps slight short-term memory impairment, are much easier to deal with then death by overdose. Some of its side effects (aside from the pain relief) are actually beneficial. For instance the "munchies" people laugh about coupled with cannabis' proven nausea fighting effects are extremely beneficial to people who suffer from loss of appetite and nausea from chemotherapy. There are hundreds if not thousands of people who claim cannabis saved their life b/c it allowed them to continue chemo when otherwise they would've had to stop.

The government's proposed medicine for patients who want that effect is marinol, synthetic marijuana. If that doesn't show you the drug companies are behind the criminality of cannabis then nothing will. Think about it, what sense does it make to charge people an arm and a leg for synthetic marijuana when it can be grown for free and even grows naturally. It only makes sense if you're a drug company and you want to line your pockets. Plus it only comes in a pill form, which many chemo patients can't keep down. They should have the right to have a responsible, law abiding caregiver grow free cannabis for them so they can vaporize (not smoke) it and immediately realize the medicinal effects without having to try to digest an expensive pill. And in California, they can.

 

I appreciate your concern, but just because sorcerers were known to abuse drugs doesn't mean that any drug use (use, not abuse) is a sin. Prostitutes were known to have sex... but that doesn't mean that all sex is sinful. Context and use/abuse make all the difference in the world.

Now if you think that drinking any amount of alcohol or caffeine is a sin... then of course we're not going to agree about marijuana. But the Scriptures no where condemn drinking wine as long as you avoid getting drunk. Sorcerers abused drugs and used them in an effort to conjure the dead interact with evil spirits. That is a condemned use. Christ made wine for people to drink at a social function and celebrate with. That is not a condemned use.

Heros of the faith Noah and Joseph (among many others) were recorded as drinking wine. I'll grant that for some reason the common translations say Noah got "drunk" and Joseph just "merry" from the wine; however, the same Hebrew word is used to describe the effect it had on them, shakar [07937]. Neither is outrightly condemned for the act of drinking wine. One might argue Noah is implicitly condemned (at least by the common translators), but Joseph certainly is not. The bible also records Christ making wine. The Scriptures speak of medicinal value of the naturally occurring drug alcohol (whether it be Proverbs saying to give it to those who are ill or Paul telling Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach), but also speaks of it "making the heart glad" and "merry" all throughout Proverbs and other books. The drug serves multiple purposes for the people of God (except for abstainers like John the Baptist, who abstained from many other foods beside just alcohol).

I have no problem with people celebrating at weddings, as they did at Cana, by drinking wine. I also have no problem with people using it medicinally. It can have multiple purposes according to the scriptures.

That being said, I believe marijuana is another similar naturally occurring drug with both medicinal and "gladness" value. I have found it even has a "creativity" value, especially for musicians. You're making a stretch, in my opinion saying that since sorcery is forbidden therefore any sort of drug use (whether it be caffeine, alcohol, or marijuana) is immoral. Is drinking caffeine a sin because sorcerers were associated with taking drugs?

Certainly drunkenness is clearly stated to be a sin, and Proverbs defines it as stumbling as if on a ship at sea. Taking any drug to get to that point of being out of control is a sin. The sorcerers commonly did that, in order to get into an "alternate reality". But it is possible to drink alcohol or vaporize marijuana without getting "drunk" to where you have trouble walking. You have to consume a lot of the drug to get to that point, and with marijuana especially you would have take an awful lot of the drug.

By the way, there are scholars who believe this verse refers to the use of cannabis in the Old Testaemnt. "Then the Lord said to Moses, "Take the following fine spices: 500 shekels of liquid myrrh, half as much of fragrant cinnamon, 250 shekels of kaneh-bosm, 500 shekels of cassia--all according to the sanctuary shekel--and a hind of olive oil. Make these into a sacred anointing oil” (Exodus 30)

Elsewhere "kaneh-bosm" is used to describe an ingredient of incense for the temple. The word kaneh-bosm is translated "sweet cane" or "sweet reed" in most translations, but it very similar to the word "cannabis" which in fact is an ancient word and was in use in many cultures of the world around the same time to describe marijuana flowers. It is possible that cannabis was rubbed on the temple priests as well as burnt as incense. That being said, it is interesting to note that the temple priests eventually became musicians for the Lord as well! ;-)

Marijuana grows tall and thin like a reed or cane, and its long, compact flowers have a very sweet smell to them. Hemp was a very common plant in that day; it was used for all kinds of things from paper to clothing (this was before cotton in Asia and Europe). So this is a real possibility. I'm not saying it is a definite fact, but it is at least less of a stretch then saying since sorcerers and witches consumed and abused a variety of drugs including alcohol then it therefore is a sin for any Christian to consume any amount of any drug.

 

Right you are. But rationalizing that it is wrong doesn't make it so either.

Rationalizing that drinking caffeine in the morning for a perk before that boring morning meeting at work is a sin doesn't make it wrong . Rationalizing that drinking alcohol moderately is a sin doesn't make it a sin. And talking oneself into the belief that moderate use of cannabis is sinful doesn't actually make it sinful.

It might make it sinful for you, since if you honestly believed it was sin and you did it anyway you would personally be rebelling against God in your own mind. But your sincere belief doesn't make something sinful for me. God alone, via His Word, can declare sin generally for everyone.

 

First of all, I didn't bring up my use of medical cannabis use in this thread. I did not even come close to bringing it up. It was brought up by someone else to try to discredit me because they disagreed with the stance I took in this thread (that gluttony is a bad sin that is prevalent in America). You then jumped on the bandwagon and began taking shots at me. I would very much like to *not* be discussing cannabis at all here. However, once my character is attacked in public I will defend myself.

2nd of all, I use cannabis in a State in which it is legal. The side effects I enjoy from cannabis having to do with added creativity in some aspects of my life do not make me a criminal according CA state law. I am free to note any side-effects I want to note; that does not make my state licensed and doctor prescribed drug use "illicit". I don't see how my responding to attacks that I use illegal drugs by stating that the drug is legal where I use it is a violation of the rules of this board (that illegal drug use not be discussed).

I work in California over the Summer's because I work for law firm there and eventually want to move there after I graduate from law school. Again, you attempt to attack my character by implying the only reason I go to California is because I'm a "druggie". What if I wanted to live in California because I wanted to grow grapes for wine making? Would you call me a drunk? I am amazed at how mean you are being to me for growing a plant based drug. Read it in the Bible for yourself, Jesus himself made wine (another plant based drug) at Cana and the Pharisees called him a drunkard... see any similarities? Are you that blind to how similar you are to them?

When I said Jesus would be arrested for cultivating cannabis in 49 states it was in the context of saying He created it. That context is plainly obvious in the former post, and anyone is welcome to read it. Cannabis is a plant created by God (who Jesus is) and is a plant that the U.S. has deemed is to be eradicated under criminal sanction. Therefore God, who causes the plant to grow naturally, is a criminal under U.S. law in 49 states (actually it is more like 46 states now since others have adopted compassionate medical marijuana cultivation statutes).

You may disagree with me, but that is no reason to call me a liar or say that Jesus is not my Master. You, my friend, are the one in desperate need of prayer. I pray that someday the light of Christ will be shed on this behavior of yours.

Because of the sensitivity of the topic, I won't post links to prove this: but you can trust me that "skunk" is only one one strain of the cannabis plant. There are also strains out there called "Bubble Gum", "Pineapple", "Blueberry", etc. Guess what? Those strains smell very sweet and not at all "skunky". I know, because I have grown them under state license. Have you? That being said, many people would describe even "skunk" as smelling sweet. And "sweet" cane is sometimes translated "fragrant can", which could apply to both a skunky smelling plant and a sweet smelling plant. That you are willing to call me a liar simply because you and I disagree over what a plant smells like is telling of what you're truly motivated by... venom and hatred for me and anything I stand for. And that is wrong my friend.

Just because you disagree with information I posted doesn't mean you should resort to attacking my character and calling me a liar. I didn't make up the claim that cannabis often smells sweet. And I didn't come up with the theory that "kaneh-bosm" in Exodus could have been cannabis instead of "sweet-cane" as it is normally translated in the Old Testament. The theory was developed by scholars such as Sula Benet, an anthropologist, historian, and Ph.D from Colombia University, and Aryeh Kaplan, a widely published and noted American Orthodox rabbi. You have no right to call me a liar, especially since I said I thought their claims were not provable as fact, but were merely less of a stretch then your implicit claim that because the Bible implies sorcerers abused drugs therefore any drug use is a sin (whether it be drinking wine at a wedding, caffeine for a perk, cannabis for creativity, etc.).

That you would accuse me with such venom simply because of an intellectual disagreement puts you on par with the same person who brought up my medical cannabis use in this thread as an attack against my character simply because they disagreed with my intellectual/theological position in this thread. They were wrong and you are wrong for continuing the attack. Again, I would very much like to *not* be discussing cannabis at all here. However, once my character is attacked I will defend myself.

 

Proverbs describes drunkenness as stumbling like on a ship in high sees. There is a reason why "drunk" driving Breathalyzer tests in most states allow for 2 or more beers in an hour (3 or more for many men) without triggering... it is because the human body can consume the chemical drug alcohol without becoming "drunk".

Jesus made wine at Cana. He was accused of being a drunkard too, so this legalistic philosophy towards alcohol and other drugs is not something new or unique. It has been around a long time. If I had to choose between being more like the Pharisees (any wine use at all = drunkard) or Jesus ("here have a glass of wine") I'd personally pick Jesus. I agree that we are not to be drunk. I disagree that any amount of wine makes one drunk. Both the Scriptures and common sense (by which I mean common DUI laws, etc.) teach otherwise.

I do obey the laws over me. That being said, I would point out to you that technically the Bible doesn't say "obey the laws". It says "submit to the authorities". People like Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks may not have obeyed laws at times... but they always peacefully submitted to the authorities when the time came. It is called civil disobedience, and though I don't participate in it right now... I reserve the Biblical right to.

Finally, I think I've already treated the "sorcery" attack against moderate use of wine, caffeine, or other drugs earlier in this thread. I just don't see much of an argument there. It seems more like you are stripping a word out of its context and trying to force it to apply to behaviors that are clearly different in very important ways (use versus abuse, meaning a glass or two of wine versus becoming extremely drunk on wine; also purpose, by which I mean drinking wine in excess to communicate with evil spirits versus drinking wine moderately and just being merry, "glad in the heart", and thankful to God for it).

 

Again, I appreciate your concern. But if the root word of "sorcery" is the strongest argument you have against moderate drug use (such as caffeine, wine/alcohol, or even cannabis in states or countries where it is legal) then you have a problem. The root of the word could imply a huge variety of things are evil... from being a pharmacist or gas station clerk/wine merchant, to being a drug company or even a wine maker, or to being a drunkard or drug abuser and divining spirits. The word isn't specific. You have to go the context and the rest of the Scriptures for clarity.

We know being a drunkard or addict is a sin; that is plain in Scripture. However, as far as drinking wine moderately without becoming drunk, that is by no means clearly a sin and in fact most of the Christian world sees the Scriptures clearly condoning and allowing it (Christ making wine for a celebration, Joseph drinking wine and becoming "shakar" amongst other hero's of the faith, Proverbs' praises for the benefits of moderate wine use amongst its warnings against abuse, etc.).

Even amongst the extremely small fraction of Christians and even smaller fraction of historians (if one exists) worldwide who don't believe wine in the Bible had alcohol in it, it is hard to find ones that will call any Christians who disagree with them "sinners" for partaking moderately in wine. That is because such Christians typically know they are standing on relatively unclear arguments and at the most can say "this is my opinion" instead of, "this is what God clearly says."

It doesn't take a "loophole" or any difficult rationalization to see the weaknesses of relying on the "sorcery is a sin" argument against responsible, moderate alcohol use or the responsible, moderate use of any other drug nature provides for that matter (caffeine and cannabis included).

Well, thanks again for sharing your opinion and for your concern. You obviously think I have the weaker argument, and I think the same of yours. I agree to disagree. I would really rather not be discussing this topic, given that it was brought up in this thread for no other reason then to attack my character b/c of disagreement with my views on gluttony. That being said, you have been courteous to me in your comments, unlike others. Thank you, and take care.

 

Again, I did not bring up my use and cultivation of cannabis under state medical license and prescription. It was brought up by someone else in this thread to attempt to personally attack my character because they were personally offended by my statements about overeating, or gluttony, being a common sin in America, the Church, and even amongst well-known pastors. Cannabis is completely off the topic I started in this thread, and it was completely and wholly brought up by someone else.

I would rather not discuss cannabis here, and I would rather you stop discussing it as well. As it is, you continue to join in the attacks on my character, and so I have to continue to defend myself.

"Your post is so full of lies... Not only that, you started this thread with the intent to flame others." That is from your post. If you honestly can say that isn't an attack on my character, then I'm not the one who is "deceived" my friend. And the excuse "I was referring to the content of your words, not to you as a liar personally," doesn't help much. The personal nature of your venom is clear; you claim I am here with wrongful intent.

If you want to continue discussing cannabis use versus abuse, caffeine use, alcohol use, etc. I simply ask that you please do so privately with me via messages or start another thread. This thread was meant to discuss gluttony as it relates to America and particularly the Christian Church, not the smell of cannabis. On the other hand, if you want to continue spewing venom towards me and participating in the public attack against my character, then I will continue to publicly defend myself.

God bless,