A question for a Calvinist

[MB]

A Calvinist told me once.....
“God is always taking the first step, and is NEVER waiting for us to act.”

i.e. (He forces salvation etc, on us, and never waits for us to make the decision to trust Christ as our Savior.)
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My question has to do with.......
Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Here, the Lord is waiting, for a response!

I've always wondered where hyper Calvinist get their ideas of irresistible grace. If God were irresistible, then once man was saved he would no longer sin. After all sin is rebellion and rebellion is certainly resistance. There is no man with out sin because none of us are perfect. Yet it is God's will that we obey Him.
MB
MB

 

[jcjordan]

I've always wondered where hyper Calvinist get their ideas of irresistible grace. If God were irresistible, then once man was saved he would no longer sin. After all sin is rebellion and rebellion is certainly resistance. There is no man with out sin because none of us are perfect. Yet it is God's will that we obey Him.
MB
MB

What you've described is not the docrine of irresistable grace and I don't know where you even came up with such an idea. Where in the world did you get this idea? Do you know what the doctrine of Irresistable Grace actually teaches?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Hello again Pastor Larry

You suggested that my mistake was......
Quote:
“Rather than listening to what people believe, we make it up for them.”

Well, how in the world, can we “listen to what people believe”??

Other than by what comes out of their mouth.
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If a person says.......
“God is always taking the first step, and is NEVER waiting for us to act.”

It is perfectly logical to say, that you believe......
“He never waits for us to make the decision!”

Isn't this contradictory? You say we should "listen to what comes out of their mouth" and then you fail to stop there but proceed to draw what you consider to be "perfectly logical" conclusions. First, your conclusion is not "perfectly logical." Second, listen to what comes out of their mouth. Don't put words back in it.'

 

[Bro. James]

Again, the observation: Revelation is not written to the lost, including 3:20. This is spoken to New Testament Churches which already had many problems. Salvation has nothing to do with church membership. One could join every church on the globe and still be unsaved. This is not to say that there are no unsaved on the church rolls. The Lord knows them that are His.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Reformer]

deleted........

 

[Pastor Larry]

Revelation is not written to the lost, including 3:20. This is spoken to New Testament Churches which already had many problems. Salvation has nothing to do with church membership. One could join every church on the globe and still be unsaved. This is not to say that there are no unsaved on the church rolls. The Lord knows them that are His

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that it is written to the church corporate, rather than to individuals? In 3:20, Christ is knocking on teh door of the church corporate, not individual hearts. But that church corporate is made up many people who apparently are unbelievers.

 

[webdog]

Again, the observation: Revelation is not written to the lost, including 3:20. This is spoken to New Testament Churches which already had many problems. Salvation has nothing to do with church membership. One could join every church on the globe and still be unsaved. This is not to say that there are no unsaved on the church rolls. The Lord knows them that are His.

Selah,

Bro. James

What is your interpretation of the "buy from Me"'s?

 

[Bro. James]

This scripture has no reference to lost people. Buying gold and white raiment is a work. Not by acts of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He has saved us. Jesus has bought us with a price and the white robes are made white by the Blood of the Lamb. See Rev. 7: 9-17. Vs. 9 says the ones with white robes are uncountable. Jesus has redeemed a multitude which follow Him. Some are not following very well--the cares of this world get many of us from time to time. The Lord chastens His sheep--out of the ditch.

The Laodiceans had need of nothing, including Jesus--He was outside the door. In reality, they were miserable and wretched, not necessarily lost. See I Cor 3:10-15. There are saved people who will see their works burned up, and they will suffer loss of rewards; yet they are saved, yet so as by fire.

Saved or unsaved, all our righteousness is filthy rags without the imputed righteousness of Jesus. The saved have only one plea--guilty but redeemed. The unsaved have only one plea: guilty.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[webdog]

This scripture has no reference to lost people. Buying gold and white raiment is a work. Not by acts of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He has saved us. Jesus has bought us with a price and the white robes are made white by the Blood of the Lamb. See Rev. 7: 9-17. Vs. 9 says the ones with white robes are uncountable. Jesus has redeemed a multitude which follow Him. Some are not following very well--the cares of this world get many of us from time to time. The Lord chastens His sheep--out of the ditch.

The Laodiceans had need of nothing, including Jesus--He was outside the door. In reality, they were miserable and wretched, not necessarily lost. See I Cor 3:10-15. There are saved people who will see their works burned up, and they will suffer loss of rewards; yet they are saved, yet so as by fire.

Saved or unsaved, all our righteousness is filthy rags without the imputed righteousness of Jesus. The saved have only one plea--guilty but redeemed. The unsaved have only one plea: guilty.

Selah,

Bro. James

Interesting take. This is the opposite of what John Macarthur (yes...THE John Macarthur :laugh has to say about Laodicea. I tend to agree with Macarthur on this one...the church was a church in name only, and if there were any true beleivers there, Christ had nothing to say about them. The "buy from me" is the salvation that only Christ has to sell.

 

[Rippon]

I've always wondered where hyper Calvinists get their ideas of irresistible grace.

Calvinists,believe in what you call irresistable grace.In our circles it's usually called Effectual Calling.You need to distinguish between hyper-Calvinism,and that of mainstream Calvinism.A lot of Arminian Fundamentalists both past and present do the same thing as you.They barely get the word Calvinist out of their mouths before they call us hyper-Calvinists.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Rippon


You seem to be an authority on the subject:

Can you tell me, do mainstream Calvinists believe, that we do not have a free will?
(Or is this just a hyper-Calvinists view?)

 

[Bro. James]

"Buy FROM me..."--a multi-faceted preposition. It is a serious doctrinal deviation to imply salvation can be bought. Sale of indulgences notwithstanding, salvation is not for sale. Yet some have bought the bishopric of the pope. Jesus paid the price which none of us could pay--He shed His innocent blood.

We can make a pilgrimmage daily, pray without ceasing, give everything to the poor, etc., etc., and still not gain heaven. Jesus paid it all--it is finished. For by grace we are saved through faith, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any should boast; we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Even the faith to believe is provided by God. He provides the faith to follow as well. This is where a number of folk have stumbled.

To God be the glory--great things He has done. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags--bed linen from a plague.

Whatever "buy from me" means, it must harmonize with other scripture. God is not the author of confusion.

These things were written, believed and practiced 1500 years before Jacobus A. and Jon C. were born. This faith and practice was in the interum as well--even to this day. Just because Calvin may have believed some of these things, does not make him the author. The same could be said for many so-called protestants. True Baptists are not protestant as commonly believed by the masses.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi Rippon


You seem to be an authority on the subject:

Can you tell me, do mainstream Calvinists believe, that we do not have a free will?
(Or is this just a hyper-Calvinists view?)

Not to overstep Rippon, but I will give my reply before heading to work.

Calvinist believe man has a will, but it is not free.

Just a simple study of the will cause most to agree. Like you are born with a IQ. You cannot change your IQ no matter how much you will it so. You are left with the IQ that God gave you. You may desire to be the worlds best NBA basketball player, but if you do not have the skills to be the best player in the world, your will in itself will not get you there. You can be the best player with the skills you have and that is it.

Having a will to chose anything you want or anything you will, never has been part of man. Therefore the will is not free but limited.

The 1st way to see this as it relates to salvation is the choice before us. If man does not know the gospel, God is not a choice. Now at this point many will point to Romans where the Law of God is on all mens hearts. This of course is true. Man should know there is a God, but the Law and the gospel are not the same thing. Even with that, all would have to admit that the gospel is heard by some through preaching, missions, radio, door to door witness, from birth till death, and in some places of this earth the gospel maybe heard once or maybe not at all before someone dies and meets the Maker. If the choice of the gospel is not before them, mans will is not free to chose.

To those that do hear the gospel, mans will is bound in sin where his lust and desires will blind him to the truth of the Gospel. Man then will always choose sin over the gospel. It takes the work of the Holy Spirit to remove the blindness before man can chose God.

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A hyper-Calvinist is not one that believes the full doctrines of grace as in TULIP. Hypers do not believe in missions because they think God will save who he wills so what is the use to share the gospel. Hypers fail to see that God has chosen the church as that means to share the gospel with the world.

 

[Allan]

"Buy FROM me..."--a multi-faceted preposition. It is a serious doctrinal deviation to imply salvation can be bought. Sale of indulgences notwithstanding, salvation is not for sale.

That was the whole point. They thought 'they' had it all and what they didn't have now 'they' most surely could get. It could very well be that though they were not selling salvation their idea of salvation was indeed a serious deviation from doctrinal truth.

Since God is not a General Store nor is righteousness obtain through barter or works we can understand that Jesus was not encouraging them to actually 'buy' but to take notice that nothing from Him is obtained in such a worldly understood manner. Christ brings home their spiritual deprevation in telling them to 'buy' all those things found in salvation and if they even attempted to venture to find out what such a cost would be it would be beyond what they or all of humanity combined could offer. All that is spoken of to their shame was His alone to give.

That is why this is followed not by what each item might be worth/cost but that He stands at the door knocking and whoever hears his voice and opens the door, Christ will come in and dine not causually or out of duty but intimately and purposefully. And Christ will give to you all that you lack and or need that you might remain in that intimacy with Him.

 

[TomMann]

With scripture even the Calvinist agree that no man is saved unless he believes or what is refered to as man's responsiblity. Even though it is God alone that saves man, it is man who must believe or else there is no salvation.

Those Calvinists who believe that...... that no man is saved unless he believes... are not what I consider Calvinist. The Calvinist position should be that no man believes unless he is saved. But I also know that it means little to say what a Calvinist should/shouldn't/does/doesn't believe as every individual operates under a different even if slightly different bent.....

It stupifies me to hear a sovereign grace preacher spend a sermon telling a man he is incapable of responding to the gospel and then giving an alter call that says he is responsable for doing what he is incapable of.

Water must boil to become steam. Water doesn't decide to boil..... water is not responsible for not boiling...... Water remains water unless it is heated.

Man must be saved to believe..... Man doesn't decide to be saved.... man is not responsibe not for being saved. Man remains in his natural state unless he is saved...

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Why folks don't use the confessions for definitions of what Calvinists believe I will never know..

1._____ God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )
2._____ Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )

3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )

4._____ When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )

5._____ This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.

1689 LBCF

And,

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11] Westminster Confession

Now you have it direct from the larger body of Calvinist viewpoints. I think the Westminster's use of the word mutable is preferrable to "unstable"

 

[Goldie]

In context it is speaking to this particular church in which Christ was now on the outside knocking and asking for those who would to allow him back in. However, the spiritual principle is often times used by many in witnessing to the lost or as an illistration to them.

It refers to the Church of Laodicea. And it's actually ironic that they're a Church, yet Christ is standing on the outside, not on the inside of the Church (after all, He is what Church is all about). But even they have the freewill and ability to open that door.

But God isn't a respecter of persons, if He gives the Church of Laodicea a chance to open the door to him, He gives others the same chance - that's the point I was actually making.

Even the faith to believe is provided by God. He provides the faith to follow as well. This is where a number of folk have stumbled.

To God be the glory--great things He has done. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags--bed linen from a plague.

Couldn't have stated it better myself.

 

[Bro. James]

"a chance to open the door..."--a chance of making the right choice--kind of like a lottery? The names were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world--by the Grace of God. Not one has been lost except Judas Iscariot. They are impossible to count the total. God knows them that are His.

There are millions who have died never having heard the gospel. This is difficult to harmonize with the concept of having a chance. Shall we reincarnate them for another chance? Or maybe we can baptize them by proxy--if we could only get their names.

Jesus paid it all. None of His sheep will be lost. It is all by the Grace of God in accordance with His Will. He gets all the glory.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Bro. James

You said......

"a chance to open the door..."--a chance of making the right choice--kind of like a lottery?”

I like to use the word “opportunity”.

Everyone will have an opportunity to trust Christ.
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You also said.....

“There are millions who have died never having heard the gospel.”

This is true.

But God’s righteous is still intact, because each of them had an opportunity, to hear it.
(Because of natural revelation!)
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With “natural revelation”(the sun, moon & stars etc.), every person that has ever lived, received the light of God’s existence.......

Romans 10:18
“But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”

All those individuals, who used the light that God gave them, were given more light.

But all those who rejected God’s light, fell into more Spiritual darkness!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Those Calvinists who believe that...... that no man is saved unless he believes... are not what I consider Calvinist.

They are, however, what theologians and those who have studied theology consider Calvinists. Unfortunately, too many people make the same mistake that you made here ... that of confusing "election" or "regeneration" with "salvation."

The Calvinist position should be that no man believes unless he is saved.

No it shouldn't.

It stupifies me to hear a sovereign grace preacher spend a sermon telling a man he is incapable of responding to the gospel and then giving an alter call that says he is responsable for doing what he is incapable of.

That shouldn't stupefy if you know theology and Calvinism. It is entirely consistent with God's word.

Water must boil to become steam. Water doesn't decide to boil..... water is not responsible for not boiling...... Water remains water unless it is heated.

Water is not man.

Man must be saved to believe..... Man doesn't decide to be saved.... man is not responsibe not for being saved. Man remains in his natural state unless he is saved...

No.