Though 'you' were included in that (due to your post) it was not directed specifically at you RB. That is why is states "you guys". Yours was the last one there and so I used your post as culmination of the point being raised. If you felt if was a personal attact 'at you' then my appologies to you.ReformedBaptist said:
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A question for a Calvinist
- Thread starter stilllearning
- Start date
webdog said:
OK, that clears it up God is just, Therefor, some people believe unto repentance and some people don't. Is this really what you are saying or are you avoiding the question
So again I ask the same question
Why do some "accept the Truth"
and why do some "Exchange the truth for a lie"
What is the reason?
Hi Allen;
Post 99 was good but if your sure Salvation is by the choice of the man then please explain how it could still be all of God?
I don't buy into the idea that man is disabled from hearing or understanding the gospel.
Paul wrote;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
I believe that God draws all men and those who will but listen to the gospel will become convinced of it's truth. I do not believe men go searching for God on there own. Not because they can't but because they love darkness more than the light.
In my experience some men are in such a state of rebellion they simply will not listen because they know it's true to begin with and they can't stand the conviction. Most men are lost because they will not bare the conviction the truth brings.
I believe in freewill but not as some do. I don't believe that Salvation is availiable to us because of our choice but rather by the work of God. That work being the convincing of the truth, and convicting of our sin by the Holy Spirit. I believe that all man has to do is not to rebel any longer and the only choice there really is, is to rebel.
When we are convinced of the truth, we are convinced by hearing the truth and the Holy Spirit working on us, to bring us to Salvation. Once we have been convinced, we believe. It's not what we choose but rather, that we don't choose to rebel. If we do not rebel we will be convinced and it will not be against our will because we could have rebelled at any time. Thus Salvation is all of God as His word says.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If we have to make a choice then it isn't all of God.
Our belief is the work of God alone.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
If we believe at all it is not because of a choice we made but one we didn't make, which was to rebel.
MB
Post 99 was good but if your sure Salvation is by the choice of the man then please explain how it could still be all of God?
I don't buy into the idea that man is disabled from hearing or understanding the gospel.
Paul wrote;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
I believe that God draws all men and those who will but listen to the gospel will become convinced of it's truth. I do not believe men go searching for God on there own. Not because they can't but because they love darkness more than the light.
In my experience some men are in such a state of rebellion they simply will not listen because they know it's true to begin with and they can't stand the conviction. Most men are lost because they will not bare the conviction the truth brings.
I believe in freewill but not as some do. I don't believe that Salvation is availiable to us because of our choice but rather by the work of God. That work being the convincing of the truth, and convicting of our sin by the Holy Spirit. I believe that all man has to do is not to rebel any longer and the only choice there really is, is to rebel.
When we are convinced of the truth, we are convinced by hearing the truth and the Holy Spirit working on us, to bring us to Salvation. Once we have been convinced, we believe. It's not what we choose but rather, that we don't choose to rebel. If we do not rebel we will be convinced and it will not be against our will because we could have rebelled at any time. Thus Salvation is all of God as His word says.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
If we have to make a choice then it isn't all of God.
Our belief is the work of God alone.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
If we believe at all it is not because of a choice we made but one we didn't make, which was to rebel.
MB
Because they have become convinced by the Holy Spirit. Being convinced means there is no need to accept it as truth because you are convinced.Reformer said:
Because they love darkness more than the light. In the darkness they aren't exposed. They have convinced themselves that in the darkness they will not be judged.Reformer said:
MB
I never stated that men come to God without the working of God first in their life, so I have no clue as to where you got that from.MB said:
Secondly, just because a person chooses to believe the truths revealed by God does not negate the fact that salvation is of God. No man can save himself, and no man will come to God of or by himself. The fact that God comes to man, reveals truth that one might be saved, and to all who believe saves them. It is without question all of God.
Thirdly, scripture is replete with godly men asking people to believe, be reconciled, repent, ect.. all of which implies a choice because they are asking people to do this. If God only convinces then there is no need for the scripture to make any requests or commands - it will just be done. But scripture does not say it is something that just happens but it is something man must choose. Even both C and A groups (though they differ as to when) agree that man is accountable to believe God. You might be convenced of truth but you will not be saved unless you act on it. Thus the nature of the Greek work for faith/believe in the verb form. And just because a person knows these things by revelation of and from God Himself (convenced it's true) does not mean they will receive it. ex Rom 1:18-33
Lastly, man does not 'choose' to save himself or get saved, man chooses to believe what God said. Salvation - the act of saving a person is completely and only done by God Himself. And He does this toward those who believe.
I'm not exactly where you heard/learned this view, be interested to know thoug. Strictly speaking in the English language you can't get what you are ascribing to it regarding no choice (as far as I can see). However in the Greek there is no way this can be maintained. If there is one place in scripture where we a clear choice is seen to be offered regarding salvation it would refute your entire position. And there are several.
The passage I quoted in Post #99 in Duet. Also Paul pleading with the people in book of Romans to "be reconciled", as well as he telling the people "do not harden your hearts as in the days of provocation". Apparently one can reject or harden themselves against the truths God reveals.
Again though, I have never heard or read historically you view contended. It was interesting.
How effectual, measurable, or tangible, or of what import is this work of God? Does it actually accomplish what God [Almighty] intends to do?Allan said:
Is the righteous salvific judgment in accordance with the Gospel caused by the illumination of the Spirit not part of the salvation that is all of God? If not, what is an unregenerate lost person capable of doing righteously toward God pleasing to Him that one who is regenerated can do? John 6 shows that God comes to man and teaches him the Gospel, and that man believes the Gospel, but it also explains that the same people who believe the Gospel also are drawn by the Father, given to the Son, and none of them will be lost. Their faith in the Gospel is all a part of the effectual work of God unto salvation that is all of God.Allan said:
Scripture is replete with commands with God; but is it replete with clarity expressing your assumed inference that coupled with these commands are the independent or complementary ability of man apart from effectual work of God the righteous ability or will to heed the commands?Allan said:
Those who believe are drawn by the Father, taught by the Father, given to the Son, and none are lost. The belief in the Gospel itself boils down ultimately to the effectual work of God.Allan said:
The Bible on one hand expresses the human perspective of the command to believe the Gospel. The Bible also expresses God's perspective on how this is actually accomplished. God's perspective in John 6, Romans 8, Ephesians 2, and others expresses WHY there are those that actually heed the Gospel call. The two are not mutually exclusive; and the fact that there is a human perspective expressed in God's Word in no way mutually excludes, degrades, eliminates, the clear expression of God's effectual work in bringing about man's human response to the preaching of God's Word.Allan said:
MB said:
I could again rephrase the same question to
Why are some convinced by the Holy Spirit to salvation and others convinced (by themselves) that they will not judged in darkness?
As far as I can tell apart from a Monergistic salvation the question cannot be fully answered, it can be answered but then the SAME question can be rephrased over and over again, Why beat a dead hoarse. Lets just let the issue go.
Peace to all
Reformer
Hmm.. let me think... Yeah! God's word will accomplish that which He sends it out to do. No Non-Cal or Arminian believes otherwise. Most Calvinists just can't seem to grasp that concept.AresMan said:
What??
What is 'righteous "salvic" judgment'?
God said in Rom 1 that that He reveals Himself (Rom 1:19) to man through nature, chapter 2 through the conscience, chapter 3 through His word.
God reveals Himself and His wrath against ungodliness. It states they even 'knew' God but rejected Him and the truths He revealed about Himself and His judgment to come.
They are capable of believing. If a man is responsible then by definition of the very word itself he must also be able. To pretend otherwise removes any force to the words meaning.
Yes, but it does not state all men that God reveals this to will believe, the verse you speak of it 'ripped' from it's context for your pretext.
No one of or by himself will seek after God and that is why God seeks after men.
Thus no one will come to Christ unless God is the one bringing them. vs 43 is merely restating it for emphasis. All are taught of God therefore no man got this of his own accord, intellect, or reasoning. The only way man will come is if God reveals truth to him (has heard), and believes it (hath learned from the Father). One can only learn what one is willing to receive. Thus only those who are drawn and believe come to Christ.
Now is salvation in John 6 that Jesus is speaking for those who will not believe? Scripture declares it is -
Who were the "you" Jesus was talking to?
Jesus (salvation) was given to them all, both those who would believe and those who would not. Not all will receive it but it was given and offered to them all.
Yet, it does not negate the fact that God is drawing all men.
No question. Though it is done the same to every person, it's work is for the purpose of bring those of faith to salvation and those who reject it to their own damnation. Does exactly what it is intended to do.
An 'inference' is that it may be implied but not necessarily ever stated. Sorry what I gave is not 'inferences' but factual states, pleas, and commands. It is your 'presumption' that 'assumes' man is not able to believe unless otherwise regenerate. Not that scripture actually makes this statement but is a 'logical' conclusion that is drawn from you understanding of being spiritually 'dead'.
Again, no question.
Yep, God moved via the Holy Spirit working out His appointed ministry to the world so that men might believe. Some will reject it also as scripture 'clearly' states.
No one but Calvinists assumes it does.
Allan said:
How Pelagian of you. Pelagius taught that the commands of the Lord toward people also meant that there was the ability of man to obey those commands.
Get this. All people are responsible creatures.They are accountable to God.They do not have an inherent ability to obey the commands of the Lord.
This is where Arminians ( those professing to be so,and those who fall into that camp regardless) are not being honest about really believing in Total Depravity. TD is connected to the inability of people to obey God. Spurgeon had a famous sermon on that theme.He preached to people of their innate inability to obey God.
But as Christians we still need to teach/preach the duty of believing and repenting.The Holy Spirit will do His work on those of His choosing.
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It might help you to 'actually learn' a little more about what it is you are talking about.Rippon said:
You obviously need to learn a little more about what Pelagaus taught.
To help you out here, let me inform you:
Man can come to God unaided and without any influence from God. That is the foundation of his view.
It in no way no equates to what I said, unless of course you are intintionally misleading and misinforming. Which of course you are.
Your opinions aren't facts even if you presume they are.
Wrong and agian it would do you good to actaully know what others believe instead of regurgitating what some other reformer/calvinist has said about it. Many times they were incorrect about other's believed.
Spurgoen was a man and though right on many things he was also wrong on a few things as well.
God does not condemn a person for not doing something he can not do. It isn't about fairness but justice. God defined justice and also declares Himself Just and one who deals justly. Thus God is the very standard of that justice He defined. Scripture does not state that some men are damned because of Adam but are damned because they will not believe. They are 'under condemnation' but are only damned after their rejection of the truth (Prov 1, Rom 1) and rejection of the gospel (John 3, 2 Thes 2:10-12)
The Calvinistic addition to TD is just your 'opinion' of what scripture states and not actaully what scripture says.
Now see - we agree here.
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Calvinism isn't scripture but is man's views concerning them.Rippon said:
So to equate Calvinism with scripture is to place it where it does not belong in any measure. It is not scripture and it is not the gospel.. what it is is certain men's views about what the bible is saying.
To place it where you have is getting pretty close to idolitry, just be careful not to cross such a line.