A Question for Arminians (or no-name theology believers)

[glfredrick]

I didn't make anything up, it's found in Scripture.

No, it is an interpretation that some hold derived from reading certain passages of Scripture. As I said above, no ONE verse of Scripture can proof text the entirety of the atonement.

All sin, all time, all people, all universes...better?

No problem for me, but you just identified yourself as a true universalist. That may cause problems for you...

Not sure what a grok is, but like I said, I invented nothing.

"Grok" is a term that Robert Heinlein invented in one of his sci-fi novels. It means to understand with comprehension at the level of life-changing experience in the context of which he wrote. I thought by now it was encompassed in the culture and that almost everyone had heard of it or heard it used. Guess not... Ought not derail the conversation, however, as it is not pertinent to the topic whatsoever. Sort of another way of saying capicé...

 

[Skandelon]

I'll ask again... All sin and all people, or some sin and some people, or some combination, such as all sin, but some people. There really is no other choice.

Have you heard of provisional atonement? Even in the OT sacrificial system there were conditions that had to be met for the atonement to be applied to an individual. The wrath of God for the curse of sin was appeased once for ALL. God can now forgive men for their sin without compromising his justice. But their is a condition placed on the benefit of the atonement...the condition of faith.

If people go to hell it will be because of their unbelief, their refusal to accept the truth, period. Yes, the blood will cover the sin of someone who refuses for a time and comes to Christ later in life, but if someone remains in unbelief they will not fulfill the provision set by God.

 

[glfredrick]

Have you heard of provisional atonement? Even in the OT sacrificial system there were conditions that had to be met for the atonement to be applied to an individual. The wrath of God for the curse of sin was appeased once for ALL. God can now forgive men for their sin without compromising his justice. But their is a condition placed on the benefit of the atonement...the condition of faith.

If people go to hell it will be because of their unbelief, their refusal to accept the truth, period. Yes, the blood will cover the sin of someone who refuses for a time and comes to Christ later in life, but if someone remains in unbelief they will not fulfill the provision set by God.

That will still fit within one of the E-X's of my proposition, won't it...

 

[MB]

Note that in a discussion of this nature no ONE verse of Scripture will be adequate to explain the concept of the atonement, election, and the effects or results of either. This discussion must take into account the entire text of the Word of God, beginning to end, as I laid out in another discussion as being the only standard for a true theology of God.

That’s a relief then because no where does scripture ever say in all it's books that only the elect will receive the atonement. Nor does it say that the atonement is limited to any specific group or individual. It does say;

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

This isn't one verse but several and they completly disagree with Calvinism.

While nothing you have will support your limited atonement. Because atonement has been paid does not in any way guarantee that all men will accept this gift. Not to mention that all men must openly confess the name of Christ and must believe in his heart the gospel. We in effect must do as the brother's of Paul where he writes in Romans 10;1-4
Our choosing for Salvation came in John 3:16 but Calvinist insist that the word "world" doesn't mean everyone. That's there problem because they can't have scripture contradicting Calvinism. It isn't a problem to just rely on God's word instead of the nonsense that spewed out of Augustine’s mouth.
MB

 

[webdog]

No, it is an interpretation that some hold derived from reading certain passages of Scripture. As I said above, no ONE verse of Scripture can proof text the entirety of the atonement.

I never said I relied on ONE verse. I rely on the whole of Scripture. You should try it sometime.

No problem for me, but you just identified yourself as a true universalist. That may cause problems for you...

I don't recall saying anywhere everyone has faith in Christ. I'm sure you can find where? Your position renders faith to be moot.

"Grok" is a term that Robert Heinlein invented in one of his sci-fi novels. It means to understand with comprehension at the level of life-changing experience in the context of which he wrote. I thought by now it was encompassed in the culture and that almost everyone had heard of it or heard it used. Guess not... Ought not derail the conversation, however, as it is not pertinent to the topic whatsoever. Sort of another way of saying capicé...

Science fiction, eh? That explains a lot about your theology :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

Consider this illustration:

A man owes a fine for a crime he committed. He can't pay the fine and is brought to court for punishment. The judge has compassion on the man and wants to help him, but must remain just and see that the fine is paid. The judge commissions his own son to show up and pay the man's fine on his behalf. The judge looks at the man and says, "You debt has been paid in full, but all I require of you is one thing. You must say your a sorry and thank my son for his gift." STOP HERE>

At this point the DEBT, which the man could not pay is paid. The judge can now justly allow the man to go free without having to go to prison, but in order to make sure the man is repentant and grateful he only requires this one thing to be done. That is a provisional atonement. Now, the man COULD refuse to meet that burden and go to jail for his lack of remorse and gratitude, but he is NOT going to jail because of the original fine, that was paid once and for ALL by the son.

Understand now?

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Glfred very good post, & JesusFan a response very close to my own beliefs. I am personally torn between E-2 & E-1. I do think that verses such as 1 Jn 2:1-2, 1 Tim 4:10, ect-- give biblical credibility to E-2 (ie Amyraldian). Further, even many 5 point Calvinists admit that the lost get some benefits from Christ’s atonement. (The biggest example being common grace.) Additionally, all the verses that talk about Christ’s dying for the world can be limited to a certain group of mankind, but they don’t necessarily have to be (strictly grammatically speaking). But all of this being considered, I have to admit that the application of the atonement is limited & in an eternal/salvific sense---only applies to the elect (otherwise we’d be left with Universalism). Thus, I believe E-1 (if worded correctly) is perfectly acceptable. Its not as if Christ’s death was in some way insufficient to cover the sins of all mankind—its just that in God’s eternal plan only those who have faith get it applied to them with its maxim benefits.

 

[glfredrick]

That’s a relief then because no where does scripture ever say in all it's books that only the elect will receive the atonement. Nor does it say that the atonement is limited to any specific group or individual. It does say;

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

This isn't one verse but several and they completly disagree with Calvinism.

While nothing you have will support your limited atonement. Because atonement has been paid does not in any way guarantee that all men will accept this gift. Not to mention that all men must openly confess the name of Christ and must believe in his heart the gospel. We in effect must do as the brother's of Paul where he writes in Romans 10;1-4
Our choosing for Salvation came in John 3:16 but Calvinist insist that the word "world" doesn't mean everyone. That's there problem because they can't have scripture contradicting Calvinism. It isn't a problem to just rely on God's word instead of the nonsense that spewed out of Augustine’s mouth.
MB

Of course they do not disagree with Calvinism, but that is not the subject of this discussion. But to answer you in one simple statement, all who believe are the elect of God. Can't be any other way. The "whosoever" of Scripture is the same as the elect.

There is NO text of Scripture that the Calvinist does not hold as true. This common stereotype that Calvinists HAVE TO set aside some verse of Scripture in order to hold their theology is pure fallacy and pure drivel. Time to get over it and move forward. As long as you continue to erect strawman arguments, you'll never figure out some of the things that you are constantly working on. At least deal with the real substance of Calvinism, as I am with Arminianism and other no-named theologies of free will.

I'll pose a similar question to you that I posed to webdog... Have you ever actually read theology and grasp what the theologians are doing in formulating their doctrines? THEY WORK WITH THE WORD OF GOD...

 

[glfredrick]

I never said I relied on ONE verse. I rely on the whole of Scripture. You should try it sometime.

Have to go there, huh...

I don't recall saying anywhere everyone has faith in Christ. I'm sure you can find where? Your position renders faith to be moot.

Of course it doesn't render my position moot. YOU said that Christ's atonement was for all people, all sin, in all universes. But now you say that not all have faith in Christ.

Did you not read the proposition?

Unbelief is a SIN. If Christ died for ALL, in ALL time, then the sin of unbelief is also forgiven, and ALL are saved. You do not have the option of holding out those who do not believe.

Science fiction, eh? That explains a lot about your theology :laugh:

Have to go there, huh... Are you that boxed in? :thumbs:

Sci-fi has nothing at all to do with my theology. You are a cad for even thinking so. Of course if you ever actually read some sci-fi also, you would discover that one of the major themes of sci-fi writers is the issue of salvation. They seldom (rarely, or barely ever!) arrive at the biblical worldview, but they certainly do deal with theology in one sense or another, typically from a very human-centered point of view.

 

[glfredrick]

Consider this illustration:

A man owes a fine for a crime he committed. He can't pay the fine and is brought to court for punishment. The judge has compassion on the man and wants to help him, but must remain just and see that the fine is paid. The judge commissions his own son to show up and pay the man's fine on his behalf. The judge looks at the man and says, "You debt has been paid in full, but all I require of you is one thing. You must say your a sorry and thank my son for his gift." STOP HERE>

At this point the DEBT, which the man could not pay is paid. The judge can now justly allow the man to go free without having to go to prison, but in order to make sure the man is repentant and grateful he only requires this one thing to be done. That is a provisional atonement. Now, the man COULD refuse to meet that burden and go to jail for his lack of remorse and gratitude, but he is NOT going to jail because of the original fine, that was paid once and for ALL by the son.

Understand now?

You are doing the same thing as webdog... Seeking another way out.

Which is it? E-1, E-2, or E-3?

 

[webdog]

Have to go there, huh...

No you went there, I just followed

Of course it doesn't render my position moot. YOU said that Christ's atonement was for all people, all sin, in all universes. But now you say that not all have faith in Christ.

Clearly, reading comprehension is not one of your strong points, which makes your profession baffling. Here is word for word what I said 2 pages back "E-5 Christ's death appeased God's wrath against sin, faith in Christ appeases God's wrath against sinners"

Did you not read the proposition?

I did. Did you not read where I said it was a false dichotomy?

Unbelief is a SIN. If Christ died for ALL, in ALL time, then the sin of unbelief is also forgiven, and ALL are saved. You do not have the option of holding out those who do not believe.

"E-5 Christ's death appeased God's wrath against sin, faith in Christ appeases God's wrath against sinners"

Have to go there, huh... Are you that boxed in? :thumbs:

See first feply

Sci-fi has nothing at all to do with my theology. You are a cad for even thinking so. Of course if you ever actually read some sci-fi also, you would discover that one of the major themes of sci-fi writers is the issue of salvation. They seldom (rarely, or barely ever!) arrive at the biblical worldview, but they certainly do deal with theology in one sense or another, typically from a very human-centered point of view.

I thought you would see the laughing emoticon as jesting...but apparently a sense of humor is also another trait lacking in reformed theology.

 

[Skandelon]

You are doing the same thing as webdog... Seeking another way out.

Which is it? E-1, E-2, or E-3?

E-4 Jesus made provisional atonement for all the sins of all men.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I thought you would see the laughing emoticon as jesting...but apparently a sense of humor is also another trait lacking in reformed theology.

Webdoggie---come on now—not all of the reformed flavor lack a sense of humor—take me for example---every time I read your posts about libertarian free will—I sit back & laugh & laugh--& go that webdog—he’s gotta be joken when he writes this stuff—b/c surely no one with any real biblical sense would say mankind is completely free to choose without out any outside forces restraining personal decisions. But then again—if one has the ability to believe that bene elohim refers to Sethities—maybe they do have the ability to support something as amusing as lfw!-:laugh: Now back to the thread at hand-:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

If I had to give an analogy it would be like this;

Suppose I PM'd to everyone here at BB and said I had already bought you a ticket for next year's Super Bowl. And in fact I did go out and purchase a ticket for every member here. Now I tell everyone here that if you will simply send me a self addressed envelope I will mail you this free ticket.

Well, those who believed me will send me a self addressed envelope and will receive a free ticket to the Super Bowl.

Those who do not believe me will not send me a self addressed envelope and will not receive a free ticket to next year's Super Bowl even though a ticket was purchased for them.

And this is how salvation works, Jesus has made the full payment for all our sins, but we must believe him and trust him to receive it.

 

[Van]

Reply to Glfredrick,

Of late, there have been any number of questions for the Calvinists on the board, so I figured it was time to return the favor. This is not out of spite or an angry heart, but the question I will pose below I believe will prove difficult for those with an Arminian (or other non-named free will perspective).

So, here goes...

The question concerns the limits or unlimited atonement. I believe it is safe to say that Arminians and others holding some form of free will as a part of their doctrine area also in the camp of unlimited atonement. Christ died for all men (all people) in all ages, and all may freely come to Him in belief seeking salvation.

The proposition below is based on the doctrinal statement above.

(I will allow the statement above to be amended so that it is satisfactory to the camps described directly above. I wish to very accurately portray whom it is that I speak.)

Proposition:

A. Christ died for all people -- and His death was for all sin (all means all)

B. Unbelief is a sin against God -- according to the "all men/all sin" aspect of Christ's atonement, unbelief should be one of the sins Christ died for

D. Yet, Unbelievers are not saved and believers are saved

-- Therefore --

E-1. Either Christ did not die for all people and cover all sins​

E-2. Or Christ did die for all people but not for all sins​

E-3. Or Christ did die for all people and all sins​

E-1 is the position of the Reformed (Calvinistic) theology, and holds that the atonement is limited and effectually applied only for the elect.

E-2 is the Amyraldian perspective which states that Christ died for all, but the "effects" of the atonement are for the elect only.

E-3 is the Arminian perspective, which states that Christ did indeed die for all men and all sins.

Starting with E-3, the problem is that unbelief is a sin, so how is it, that Christ died for all sin in all people, yet unbelief remains? It would seem that some form of special pleading is required to satisfy this solution to the proposition above. The alternative is universalism (per Rob Bell and others) in that a loving God who died for all people would never leave those people to eventually be damned in their sin. This position seems untenable.

E-2 is plausible, save that there is no biblical context to prove it, and also that no true free-will or Arminian individual will generally claim any form of limited atonement.

That leaves E-3, which states simply, that Christ died for the elect. which takes into account the scriptures and the fact that not all people are believers.

Note that in a discussion of this nature no ONE verse of Scripture will be adequate to explain the concept of the atonement, election, and the effects or results of either. This discussion must take into account the entire text of the Word of God, beginning to end, as I laid out in another discussion as being the only standard for a true theology of God.

Thanks for the puzzle. And sorry if this view has been offered in the posts before mine, I am just responding to the OP.

First lets amend the statements so they are backed with scripture.

A. Christ died for all people because He laid down His life as a ransom for all.

B. Unbelief is a sin and cannot be forgiven if it continues until death. However, if a person comes to their senses and puts their trust in Christ, all the previous rejections and unbelief are forgiven.

C. Those whose faith God credits as righteousness are saved, those who did not hear, were unable to hear, or did not trust wholeheartedly are not saved from God's perfect justice.

Now based on these three biblically supported statements, we can draw the following conclusions about the extent of God's reconciliation.

1. Christ died for all people, and His sacrifice provides the propitiation or means of salvation for all people. There is no other way.

2. Only believers whose faith is credited as righteousness receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's propitiation. If all people were believers all sin would be forgiven, if no one is a believer, no sin is forgiven.

Therefore:
E1 is unbiblical,
E2 comes nearer to being supported but it is not the effects that is limited, it is the people who receive the effects that is limited.
E3 is also quite close to being biblical, but only the sin of those whose faith is credited as righteousness receive the reconciliation provided for all sin.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Not sure how this helps you... Did Christ die for all sins or just some sins? If "some sins" how does that make your position materially different from E-1?

I believe you need an E-4 and that being, Christ died for all sins of all people who, using their freewill, repent and ask to be forgiven.

We all sin, but our sins can only be forgiven if we ask that they be forgiven.

You are also inserting the "special pleading" aspect that I mentioned above. Only "sinners that sinners ask God to forgive" (which opens another can of worms) are forgiven. How do people even know that they are sinners until God makes that clear in their life? Is it not His conviction that leads one to believe that know that they are indeed a sinner? That, then, means that the E-1 perspective is the true proposition.

Because God gave man intelligence and as we mature we begin to understand wrong and right ... age of accountability you know. It was this knowledge of good and evil that caused Adam and Eve to be cast out of the garden. And we, like Adam and Eve, when we reach an age of knowing right and wrong, and we purposely use our free will to do wrong, we too are cast out of our Garden of Eden and into the world.

The story of Adam and Eve is the story of every person who matures to the knowledge of good and evil. And once we knowingly have done evil, another word for sin, we begin carrying guilt that only Christ can take away.

 

[convicted1]

Lev. 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: This here is a "type" of Jesus being our scapegoat. When He took the SIN OF THE WHOLE WORLD and nailed them to the cross with Himself, He became our scapegoat!!

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

This right here shows exactly who the atonement was for; ALL!! He died for all(the atonement was made for all), but only those who choose to believe will reap the benefits!! :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:???????

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Rippon]

Thanks for the puzzle. And sorry if this view has been offered in the posts before mine, I am just responding to the OP.

First let's amend the statements so they are backed with Scripture.

A. Christ died for all people because He laid down His life as a ransom for all.

Christ did not die for each and every person who has ever lived past,present and future --including those who have been in eternal torment boreand during Christ's sacrifice.

Christ died only for the Church,His Body,His Bride,the sheep and many other srciptural designations.

Now based on these three biblically supported statements, we can draw the following conclusions about the extent of God's reconciliation.

Well,as you can see A. is invalid.

1. Christ died for all people, and His sacrifice provides the propitiation or means of salvation for all people. There is no other way.

Christ's sacrifice was not potential --it actually saved certain ones of His choosing.

 

[Rippon]

However, if a person comes to their senses and puts their trust in Christ, all the previous rejections and unbelief are forgiven.

Ah,the power of unregenerate totally depraved people having the wherewithal and personal strength to make such a momentous choice of their own free dead-in-sin will!

 

[quantumfaith]

Ah,the power of unregenerate totally depraved people having the wherewithal and personal strength to make such a momentous choice of their own free dead-in-sin will!