a question for Calvinists

[Helen]

A decision always means there is an alternative, or there is no decision to make! An alternative means there is a choice.

Addiction might be considered a state in which there is no alternative left...at least not for the addict.

I have been badly addicted to morphine after three surgeries. Each time the choice had to be made FOR me to stop. None of those times would I have been able to by myself -- my need for the drug (or my perceived need, if you like) had removed 'choice' from me. I remember DT's. I remember what I can only call 'electric chills' which felt like my fingers and toes were all plugged into sockets and the current was turned on at odd times and coursed through my body in a horrid way. This is withdrawal. Offer the addict relief with his drug and there is no choice. He takes the drug.

I can guarantee that.

That is not freedom of choice.

Real decisions do involve real alternatives and that means real choices.

 

[BobRyan]

A4givenGirl
To Bob: okay...well...I have the NKJV but its the same... "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction...."eternal/everlasting means that it doesn't end

As Ken pointed out - their destruction is everlasting no matter which way you look at it.

But their life is not "everlastinng" if you pick the view that Ken suggests may be the solution - and in this case - I agree with Ken.

(That is right, Bob agrees with Ken on some point on this message board.)

We often find fellow Christians reading the text with tradition and preconceived ideas instead of letting the text speak for itself - hence "everlasting destruction" is reworked in our minds as "everlasting life - in a process of being destroyed but never quite getting destroyed or consumed or burned up".

As many good evangelists have said "you get Everlasting Eternal Life - either in Heaven or in Hell".

Once we read "eternal destruction" through that "lense" it comes out as "eternal life of living through the process of being destroyed - but not ever reaching that point of complete destruction". It turns "eternal destruction" into "Eternal NOT Destruction". Or it engages in the doublespeak of saying "Destruction is in the NOT destruction".

But instead of that - the Bible is correct in Rev 14 - we ARE all there and the lost DO all suffer "in our presence" -- "eternal destruction". That is very explicit in the text. They are not suffering "away from our presence" according to Rev 14:10.

And no other text says they "Suffer Away from the presence of the saints". The Bible is in complete unity on this point.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 16, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

Helen
What is interesting, Bob, is that there are no more tears or or mourning or crying or pain. So what is it that we are seeing?

IN the parable of Luke 16, does Abraham appear to be ignorant of what the rich man is suffering? The Bible never presents the view that although the event takes place in the Presence of the saints they are oblivious to events takinig place in their presence.

And you are right in Rev 21 - AFTER - the event of the Great white throne judgment and the fire and brimstone of Rev 20 - Then - and only Then do we see the statement you reference "He shall Wipe away every tear" 21:4.

You are correct that the Law of Love (Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18) is the principle of God's kingdom - Love for God and Love for our fellow humans - which turns out to be Love for ALL (not an arbitrarily select few that we pick out).

God loves EVEN our loved ones in the fire and brimstone and SO do we.

We love them with the 1Cor 13 Love "That hopes all things, believes all things... never takes into account a wrong suffered..".

Our ability to embrace that heavenly principle WITHOUT our present sinful nature - will far outstrip our current ability. We will be MORE loving of even our Precious children - not LESS.

The Bible never says that DURING that time while the lost suffer in our presence - while our own loved ones burn in agony - literally - in our literal presence -- that we will be 'happy'. But AFTER that event - in Rev 21 we do see Christ "Wipe away every tear".

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 16, 2002, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

A4Given Girl
Cool! I'm still kind of confused about what you were saying about God and His patience and the Romans passage...I'm really interested to know, so if you could maybe explain further, I'd really appreciate it! Thanks!!

Here it is --

Romans 9

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


Notice that this does not say "God DOES NOT have MERCY on vessels He knows to be destined for hell." Instead Paul argues that the case depends on God who HAS mercy (And not on JUST the FEW).

Having mercy on the LOST ALSO messes the whole limited atonement thing . Oh well let's try another chapter.

Rom 9
23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


He DID SO? He Endured with much patientnce - SO that He could MAKE KNOWN the riches of His Glory??

Hold it. How does it convey the "riches of God's Glory" to the "vessels of mercy" - to show mercy and kindness and longsuffering upon those that God foreknows will ultimately reject Him?

This IS the Arminian argument that the JUSTICE of God is shown by His compassion, kindness and efforts to reach the lost - "I will Draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32. Paul is making the case that in the EFFORT God makes toward those that He KNOWS will not be saved by their own choice - God is REVEALING his Glory to the saints that ARE saved.
The saints are SEEING God be patient and caring EVEN of the Lost - and the text says that REVEALS to them - His Glory.

Limited atonement fails here - and so does the concept that God arbitrarily predestined them to be lost because the combination of longsuffering and effort for the lost would not "show the riches of Gods glory" IF it could be proven that God arbitrarily predestined their failure.

God is "Not willing that ANY should perish" and Paul declares that God is "Calling all men everywhere to REPENT" - but yet He still knows the end from the beginning and so - STILL chooses to endure with much patience those who will be destroyed.

And that principle "of the God that never changes" remains true EVEN in the fires of Rev 14:10-11 where they are burned "IN our Presence".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
(That is right, Bob agrees with Ken on some point on this message board.)

Gulp.

 

[Rev. G]

Gulp.

Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Bob, we love you brother!

Rev. G

 

[BobRyan]

As I say, I was somewhat surprised to find that Ken and I were viewing that aspect of the punishement of the wicked in the same way.

It must be "a sign"

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
That is not freedom of choice.

That was my point exactly. Just because one makes a choice doesn't mean one has the freedom to choose any alternative.

Originally posted by Helen:
Real decisions do involve real alternatives and that means real choices.

Again, this is true but irrelevant to your point. Free will doesn't just mean making decisions. It means making any decision, where one is just as free to choose one alternative as another.

So you still haven't gotten within light years of showing that love necessitates free will. Indeed, your story demonstrates that it doesn't logically necessitate free will at all:

Originally posted by Helen:
Each time the choice had to be made FOR me to stop.

So you can see that sometimes someone makes a choice for you. A decision is made, but you didn't make it of your own free will.

 

[Yelsew]

Every waking hour of our individual day, we make choices based upon our knowledge and the influence of the persuasions of our families, friends and acquaintences.

I cannot choose for you and you cannot choose for me!

I make my mistakes, and you yours.

I cannot live your life nor can you live mine.

The only time we have commonality between us is when we believe the same thing about the same thing.

My faith does not save you, nor can your faith save me. Faith is completely individual, but is often held commonly between us.

It is said there are 6 Billion souls living on the earth today, therefore there are 6 Billion individuals making individual choices every minute of the day. It is estimated there are 1 Billion Christians in the World, therefore there are 1 Billion who have belief in one object of faith, but there are 1 Billion who each had to choose to have faith in that one object of faith. 1 out of six may be impressive, and they could be seen as "the elect", because they chose to receive the Word of God and believe.

It remains the individual's choice regarding belief in Jesus or non belief.

Neither Calvin nor Armenius had the insight to understand that concept, and it has made of each of you, a factionary Christian.

My suggestion is that you trust neither of them, but lean on the words of Jesus alone for your salvation.

 

[Rev. G]

Every waking hour of our individual day, we make choices based upon our knowledge and the influence of the persuasions of our families, friends and acquaintences.

These are not the only things that influence our decisions every day. Above everything else, our spiritual nature plays a part in that process.

Neither Calvin nor Armenius had the insight to understand that concept, and it has made of each of you, a factionary Christian. My suggestion is that you trust neither of them, but lean on the words of Jesus alone for your salvation.

Yelsew, if neither Calvin nor Arminius had the insight to understand that concept, what makes you believe that you have it? Are you above them? You claim that "we" on here have become "factionary Christians" because we are trusting them. Actually, I those of us on here are not looking to these men, we are coming to the words of Jesus and the Apostles and wrestling through them. We are not looking to anyone for salvation other than Christ, and Him alone.

Rev. G

 

[Helen]

To Yelsew: AMEN!

[ November 16, 2002, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Yelsew,
You write:
My suggestion is that you trust neither of them, but lean on the words of Jesus alone for your salvation.

Your post reveals that you have a slight misunderstanding in regards to how Christians view Calvin. We respect and appreciate John Calvin as we respect and appreciate our own pastors. I'm sure you feel the same way of the eldership that oversee's the health of your soul? We do not, however, look to these individuals in the way we trust in Christ.

Do you really believe that there are Calvinists who trust in John Calvin for salvation?

[ November 16, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

 

[Yelsew]

Do you really believe that there are Calvinists who trust in John Calvin for salvation?

No, but I believe there are Calvinists as well as Armenians who have and hold distorted views of Christianity, the Christian Community, the Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ because of the writings of their respective namesakes. Paul spoke against this clearly when he spoke of some being of Apollos and some of Paul. He said that he would rather they abandon that practice and concentrate on being "of Jesus". I agree!

 

[Scott_Bushey]

Yelsew writes:
No, but I believe there are Calvinists as well as Armenians who have and hold distorted views of Christianity.......

I will only comment for the reformed, i.e. the Calvinist.
This may be your consensus, but it is not accurate.

Do me a favor, can you volunteer any names of historical Calvinists? I'm just curious if you are aware of whom you've "lumped" into this category, *distorted view of Christianity*.

 

[Yelsew]

The posts on this BBS Forum are sufficient for one to form the opinion that I have espoused.

The 'who' does not matter, it is the 'what' that I'm addressing. So, If your beliefs fall into the 'what' catagory, then my expressed opinion fits you.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

God created all things according to His own good pleasure. Creation manifests the handiwork of God. God did not create man to fill some void within Himself. God created man upright, but man sought many inventions (Eccles. 7:29). God will ultimately receive the glory due unto him by saving a people by His amazing grace and punishing the wicked with everlasting destruction for the glory of His justice. With reference to God, man is reputed as nothing, and God does according to His will in all things (Dan. 4:35). We have not been granted the right to question God in anything He does.

 

[Yelsew]

You're right Primitive, however, God sets the options before us for us and leaves the choice up to us.

 

[Helen]

Yes, PB, we have been granted that right; not to challenge or judge God, but to ask. It is He who gave us our curiosity. It is He who gave us our sense of justice and mercy. And He has told us to ask, to seek, to knock. It is He who gave us this desire to have things make sense, to be logical.

That is not to say we can even come close to understanding, but we truly can ask. And I have had the most enormous fun and challenge in following the leads He has so graciously supplied. I have learned more about Him that way, and that makes me love Him more and be far more in awe of Him than if I never allowed my curiosity out.

There is a sense of fun, of challenge, of exploration in being able to ask questions now I would not even have known to ask before I was born again. There is far more freedom in God than away from Him, I have found, and it's glorious. I no longer have to be afraid to ask questions, for fear has to do with punishment and I know He is not going to punish me! This lack of fear is an incredible gift from Him, and it sets me free to ask a million questions and search out as many things as I can in His creation and His ways.

Jesus said eternal life was knowing the Father and the Son. He also said the Kingdom of Heaven starts within us. And that is so true! As my questions and searches lead me to know more and more about God (as miniscule as the total of my knowledge might be..), the more I love Him and feel His love for me and the more I am aware of what Jesus was saying about the Kingdom of Heaven starting in one's heart.

Oh yes, ask away! It's not challenging or judging God to be curious and look for answers!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
Yes, PB, we have been granted that right; not to challenge or judge God, but to ask. It is He who gave us our curiosity. It is He who gave us our sense of justice and mercy. And He has told us to ask, to seek, to knock. It is He who gave us this desire to have things make sense, to be logical.

Actually, it says "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." This isn't a command, it's a promise. A very reassuring one, at that. I wish I could keep it in mind at all times.

Regardless, although I shouldn't speak for PB, I suspect he was saying that we are in no position to question God's motives for doing anything, especially with respect to whom He chooses. And that is perfectly Biblical.

Romans 9
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

I happen to believe that we are guilty of this very offense when we make outrageous statements like, "A loving God would never do this or that." Who are we to say what a loving God would do?

 

[Helen]

I happen to believe that we are guilty of this very offense when we make outrageous statements like, "A loving God would never do this or that." Who are we to say what a loving God would do?

Usually, from my own experience, the people who say this have not bothered actually reading the Bible, as it explains an awful lot very nicely! The 'complaint' you mentioned in quotes I have heard over and over again from atheists. And they have not paid attention to anything but other atheists for the most part. They certainly have not read the Bible in full.