a question for Calvinists

Well, thank you very much for welcoming me You are very kind! I was very excited to find out about this board Praise God for the revival of these doctrines among baptists! I look forward to speaking with you and learning more
In Him,
Ashley

 

Helen -

Your question is at the very heart of the debate on this board! Congratulations you get the prize for getting to the heart of the matter on the title post of this thread!

Second prize goes to Jim for posting the classic view of God as "Arbitrary and Capricious" as "the REASON" for all the pain and suffering AND not only that but also the "REASON" for creating beings to roast in hell for all eternity.

You hit the nail on the head in giving the support people most often use for defending that view of God!

Excellent!

The Arminian "Free Will" system is "the real Reason". EVEN Calvinists are forced to admit that the angels have (or at the very least HAD) free will. They were not created "evil" or "depraved" or too stupid to remain loyal to God. Some CHOSE sin while others CHOSE obedience.

God is sovereign in a Free Will system that was CREATED that way. Romans 3 describes God as allowing himself to be judged - evaluated by free will inteligent beings able to draw their own conclusions - not merely robots with brains "pithed" in obedience mode.

Adam and Eve are another example of being obviously created with the ability to CHOOSE - though not created "sinful" and "depraved" or driven by God to fail.

God created, sustains and opperates in a system of free will. His creation is motivated by faith - but not faith alone -also by compelling evidence, information, experiment, proof of concept.

Daniel 7 shows God engaged in judgement - but not in an arbitrary capricious manner handing out sentences from His cloistered throne - INSTEAD His court CONSISTS of myriads and myriads - the court SITS and the BOOKs are opened according to Daniel 7.

God's infinite knowledge is not a shared trait of His finite creation.

Job 1 "Shows" sinnless beings observing experiments. The NT also supports this view of sinful man "on display". It is a Universal dominion that God maintains and sinful mankind has become the focus of the Gospel, of the test of God's "LOVE" for "God is Love" and of God's Justice - for God is "A Just God".

But we have no statement in scripture that God is a God of "infinite wrath". He is said to have wrath but scripture never equates that with God as it does His attributes of Justice and Love.

Key question, big topic, main reason for pursuing this entire subject area.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 15, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

A dozen amens to that. You have some wonderful insights to share (including a terrific post in another thread). Thanks!

 

If you believe that Hell is eternal, then you must believe that God is pouring out judgment and wrath for all of eternity. Therefore his wrath has no end. Therefore God's wrath is infinite. To say that His wrath is not infinite diminishes God and calls a part of him finite and that would be blasphemy.... "The wrath of God is His eternal detestation of all unrighteousness. It is the displeasure and indignation of Divine equity agains evil. It is the holiness of God stirred into activity against sin. It is the moving cause of that just sentence which he passes upon evildoers. God is angry agains sin because it is a rebelling agains His authority, a wrong done to His inviolable sovereignty. " Pink, A.W. The Attributes of God. p.83 (chapter 16-The Wrath of God) If God is infinite, than no part of Him is infinite! Praise Him for that!!!

 

To npetreley:
Thank you so much for the encouragement! God is an awesome God!!!
In Him and for Him,
Ashley

 

Since you did not use any Bible texts to show that "God IS wrath", as can be shown for "God IS Love" and "God is Just", then I will respond with a logical sequence as well.

Suppose for a moment you have a darling child who is above the age of accountability and then ends up as one of the "MAny" of Matt 7 - that Christ says ends up in hell.

As you gaze upon her writhing in agony in those flames of Luke 16 - for a second, a minute, .. an hour... a day... a week. a year a decade..

Is there ever a point where the thinking mind - having intelligence that you have today - does not Go to God and beg for mercy?? Beg him to end the torment after so long a time? Just end it.

What if He smiles back at you and then continues with renewed infinite interest to look on with great pleasure expressing anew His infinte wrath upon your darling precious jewel - who is "tormented with fire and brimstone in the Presence of the Lamb and of His Holy ones" Rev 14:10

Will your view of God as "God IS love" begin to change after a while?

According to Romans 9, God is not "ignorant of this problem". HE states that even in this life He "endures with MUCH PATIENCE" vessels of wrath - BECAUSE in doing so - He is demonstrating his MERCY to those who are saints. HE knows full well that He himself is Viewed by the saints by the actions He takes with His creatures He has made - all of them not just an arbitrarily select few.

Yes - He will judge and burn the wicked as He said - BUT if it turns out that "God IS Wrath" as in the scenario above - it will prove to be a problem for both the lost AND the saved over time. Fortunately - scripture makes no such statement about God.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 15, 2002, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

God WILL save ALL his blood bought elect children!... If the scriptures said that this was not so then I would worry!... Since the scriptures state time and time again that the Will... the Purpose... And the Promises of God will never fail and no one can thwart those Plans and he WILL not lose a one... Why should I worry?
He is God and I'm not and this doesn't bother me at all like it does some... He WILL do his WILL and none can stay his hand. I don't believe in the some will not make it doctrine and it is not a race thing God did not make possible the Salvation of all Adams race... It a grace thing!... With a capital G.... God within the race he created took out a people out of every race and redeemed them... Making them his people by GRACE... And WILL not lose a one!... Brother Glen

 

So are you saying that God will not continue to pour His wrath on the unsaved in Hell for all of eternity?

 

Oh, by the way.... And just because God is love doesn't make Him unwrathful! Psalm 76:10 "Surely the wrath of man shall praise You; With the remainder of wrath You shall gird Yourself." be careful...I never said that God in His nature is wrath. I believe that God in His nature is love, light and spirit. (John 4:24, 1 John 1:5, and 1 John 4:8) But God is also taught in the scriptures to have attributes, such as: supremacy, sovereignty, immutability, holiness, power, faithfulness, goodness, patience, grace, mercy, love, wrath, contemplation, solitariness, decrees, knowledge, & foreknowledge...again i refer to Pinks book There are numerous Biblical references if you would like them!! We also know that our God is Wise and Just and deserving of all glory and praise! We could go on and on! God's general love for His creation, and His special love for the elect is another topic alltogether. With that statement in mind, can you sort of understand where I'm coming from when I draw the conclusion that just as God is a God of love, He's also a God of wrath? Thanks for reading!!!

 

I believe that the Rev 14:10 statement is literally true.

the wicked are literally tormented with literal fire and literal brimstone in the literal presence of Christ and His saints - period. No escaping it, no escape clause. No "wait a minute I am taking a break today". We are all there.

And I also belive that the "smoke of their torment ascends up forever" as we see in the case of Isaiah 34:8-11 where the same result is achieved (the same language that John appeals to) though it is a different event.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Cool! I'm still kind of confused about what you were saying about God and His patience and the Romans passage...I'm really interested to know, so if you could maybe explain further, I'd really appreciate it! Thanks!!

 

I am not yet convinced of the annihilationist view but I think eternal destruction may very well mean eternal destruction, which can be taken to mean the lost do not exist forever. But I am convinced that the Bible does not teach that the soul inherently continues in existence. The quality of eternal existence must be bestowed on the human soul.

2 Thessalonians 1:9(NASB) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Either way, hell is not a place I wish to go to.

Ken

[ November 16, 2002, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

To Bob: okay...well...I have the NKJV but its the same... "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction...."eternal/everlasting means that it doesn't end

 

Helen, Do you believe that God was fully satisfied in and of Himself and didn't need to create in order to be happy, but chose to do so in order to bring glory unto Himself? Just wondering

 

That doesn't make sense to me. Why is free will a prerequisite for love?

 

One other thing to Helen---Jesus's death on the cross was not only love, but wrath too, as Jesus took the wrath of God that was deserved by sinners.

 

Amen.

Ken

 

That's not a syllogism. A decision does not necessitate free will, so it does not follow that love requires it. For example, a person in bondage to alchohol may "decide" to have a drink and "decide" what kind of drink, but the decision is driven by the addiction, not free will. One might suggest that the decision to "resist" a drink must be one of free will, since it is contrary to the bondage of the addiction. But even if that were true, it doesn't disprove the former point - that someone also makes decisions out of bondage, which demonstrates that decisions -- just because they're "decisions" -- do not necessitate free will.