a question for Calvinists

[A4GivenGirl]

Well, thank you very much for welcoming me You are very kind! I was very excited to find out about this board Praise God for the revival of these doctrines among baptists! I look forward to speaking with you and learning more
In Him,
Ashley

 

[BobRyan]

Helen -

Your question is at the very heart of the debate on this board! Congratulations you get the prize for getting to the heart of the matter on the title post of this thread!

Jim1999
To answer your question you must determine the ultimate purpose in creation. God's purpose, or chief end, in creation is found within Himself....His holiness. Creation was for His on will and pleasure (Rom 11:36; Col 1:16 compare Isa 48:11, and I cor 15:28; Prov 16:4...here AV..." The LORD hath made all things for Himself" and AV "Jehovah hath made everything for its own end." (Rev. Ver.)

Second prize goes to Jim for posting the classic view of God as "Arbitrary and Capricious" as "the REASON" for all the pain and suffering AND not only that but also the "REASON" for creating beings to roast in hell for all eternity.

You hit the nail on the head in giving the support people most often use for defending that view of God!

Excellent!

The Arminian "Free Will" system is "the real Reason". EVEN Calvinists are forced to admit that the angels have (or at the very least HAD) free will. They were not created "evil" or "depraved" or too stupid to remain loyal to God. Some CHOSE sin while others CHOSE obedience.

God is sovereign in a Free Will system that was CREATED that way. Romans 3 describes God as allowing himself to be judged - evaluated by free will inteligent beings able to draw their own conclusions - not merely robots with brains "pithed" in obedience mode.

Adam and Eve are another example of being obviously created with the ability to CHOOSE - though not created "sinful" and "depraved" or driven by God to fail.

God created, sustains and opperates in a system of free will. His creation is motivated by faith - but not faith alone -also by compelling evidence, information, experiment, proof of concept.

Daniel 7 shows God engaged in judgement - but not in an arbitrary capricious manner handing out sentences from His cloistered throne - INSTEAD His court CONSISTS of myriads and myriads - the court SITS and the BOOKs are opened according to Daniel 7.

God's infinite knowledge is not a shared trait of His finite creation.

Job 1 "Shows" sinnless beings observing experiments. The NT also supports this view of sinful man "on display". It is a Universal dominion that God maintains and sinful mankind has become the focus of the Gospel, of the test of God's "LOVE" for "God is Love" and of God's Justice - for God is "A Just God".

But we have no statement in scripture that God is a God of "infinite wrath". He is said to have wrath but scripture never equates that with God as it does His attributes of Justice and Love.

Key question, big topic, main reason for pursuing this entire subject area.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 15, 2002, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by A4GivenGirl:
God does not exist for man, He is fully for Himself and His own Glory. God's thoughts and His ways are far above our ways. We cannot, with our finite human minds try to comprehend a God who is fully infinite.

A dozen amens to that. You have some wonderful insights to share (including a terrific post in another thread). Thanks!

 

[A4GivenGirl]

If you believe that Hell is eternal, then you must believe that God is pouring out judgment and wrath for all of eternity. Therefore his wrath has no end. Therefore God's wrath is infinite. To say that His wrath is not infinite diminishes God and calls a part of him finite and that would be blasphemy.... "The wrath of God is His eternal detestation of all unrighteousness. It is the displeasure and indignation of Divine equity agains evil. It is the holiness of God stirred into activity against sin. It is the moving cause of that just sentence which he passes upon evildoers. God is angry agains sin because it is a rebelling agains His authority, a wrong done to His inviolable sovereignty. " Pink, A.W. The Attributes of God. p.83 (chapter 16-The Wrath of God) If God is infinite, than no part of Him is infinite! Praise Him for that!!!

 

[A4GivenGirl]

To npetreley:
Thank you so much for the encouragement! God is an awesome God!!!
In Him and for Him,
Ashley

 

[BobRyan]

If you believe that Hell is eternal, then you must believe that God is pouring out judgment and wrath for all of eternity

Since you did not use any Bible texts to show that "God IS wrath", as can be shown for "God IS Love" and "God is Just", then I will respond with a logical sequence as well.

Suppose for a moment you have a darling child who is above the age of accountability and then ends up as one of the "MAny" of Matt 7 - that Christ says ends up in hell.

As you gaze upon her writhing in agony in those flames of Luke 16 - for a second, a minute, .. an hour... a day... a week. a year a decade..

Is there ever a point where the thinking mind - having intelligence that you have today - does not Go to God and beg for mercy?? Beg him to end the torment after so long a time? Just end it.

What if He smiles back at you and then continues with renewed infinite interest to look on with great pleasure expressing anew His infinte wrath upon your darling precious jewel - who is "tormented with fire and brimstone in the Presence of the Lamb and of His Holy ones" Rev 14:10

Will your view of God as "God IS love" begin to change after a while?

According to Romans 9, God is not "ignorant of this problem". HE states that even in this life He "endures with MUCH PATIENCE" vessels of wrath - BECAUSE in doing so - He is demonstrating his MERCY to those who are saints. HE knows full well that He himself is Viewed by the saints by the actions He takes with His creatures He has made - all of them not just an arbitrarily select few.

Yes - He will judge and burn the wicked as He said - BUT if it turns out that "God IS Wrath" as in the scenario above - it will prove to be a problem for both the lost AND the saved over time. Fortunately - scripture makes no such statement about God.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 15, 2002, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[tyndale1946]

God WILL save ALL his blood bought elect children!... If the scriptures said that this was not so then I would worry!... Since the scriptures state time and time again that the Will... the Purpose... And the Promises of God will never fail and no one can thwart those Plans and he WILL not lose a one... Why should I worry?
He is God and I'm not and this doesn't bother me at all like it does some... He WILL do his WILL and none can stay his hand. I don't believe in the some will not make it doctrine and it is not a race thing God did not make possible the Salvation of all Adams race... It a grace thing!... With a capital G.... God within the race he created took out a people out of every race and redeemed them... Making them his people by GRACE... And WILL not lose a one!... Brother Glen

 

[A4GivenGirl]

So are you saying that God will not continue to pour His wrath on the unsaved in Hell for all of eternity?

 

[A4GivenGirl]

Oh, by the way.... And just because God is love doesn't make Him unwrathful! Psalm 76:10 "Surely the wrath of man shall praise You; With the remainder of wrath You shall gird Yourself." be careful...I never said that God in His nature is wrath. I believe that God in His nature is love, light and spirit. (John 4:24, 1 John 1:5, and 1 John 4:8) But God is also taught in the scriptures to have attributes, such as: supremacy, sovereignty, immutability, holiness, power, faithfulness, goodness, patience, grace, mercy, love, wrath, contemplation, solitariness, decrees, knowledge, & foreknowledge...again i refer to Pinks book There are numerous Biblical references if you would like them!! We also know that our God is Wise and Just and deserving of all glory and praise! We could go on and on! God's general love for His creation, and His special love for the elect is another topic alltogether. With that statement in mind, can you sort of understand where I'm coming from when I draw the conclusion that just as God is a God of love, He's also a God of wrath? Thanks for reading!!!

 

[BobRyan]

I believe that the Rev 14:10 statement is literally true.

the wicked are literally tormented with literal fire and literal brimstone in the literal presence of Christ and His saints - period. No escaping it, no escape clause. No "wait a minute I am taking a break today". We are all there.

And I also belive that the "smoke of their torment ascends up forever" as we see in the case of Isaiah 34:8-11 where the same result is achieved (the same language that John appeals to) though it is a different event.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[A4GivenGirl]

Cool! I'm still kind of confused about what you were saying about God and His patience and the Romans passage...I'm really interested to know, so if you could maybe explain further, I'd really appreciate it! Thanks!!

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
And I also believe that the "smoke of their torment ascends up forever"

I am not yet convinced of the annihilationist view but I think eternal destruction may very well mean eternal destruction, which can be taken to mean the lost do not exist forever. But I am convinced that the Bible does not teach that the soul inherently continues in existence. The quality of eternal existence must be bestowed on the human soul.

2 Thessalonians 1:9(NASB) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Either way, hell is not a place I wish to go to.

Ken

[ November 16, 2002, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Helen]

What is interesting, Bob, is that there are no more tears or or mourning or crying or pain. So what is it that we are seeing? Instead of guessing now, perhaps it is better to wait and simply trust God.

I would like to add another dimension, if you will, to the original post in this thread.

I think we do know why man was created and why he was created the way he is. Jesus stated that the two commandments on which ALL of the Law and Prophets hung were commandments to love -- first God, then those around us.

Love is not an emotion, although plenty come along for the ride. It is a decision to commit. God decided to commit to us, regardless of pain to Himself, from even before creation. Thus we read that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And we love because He first loved us. We would not have known what that kind of love was unless we had seen it, experienced it, from Him.

But now He tells us -- no, COMMANDS us -- to love. If it were built into us, it would not have to be commanded. If it were an emotion, it could not be commanded. But it is not built into us, so it is commanded; and it is not an emotion, so it can be commanded.

There is nothing in any of the other Commandments we see that is impossible for man. We can choose to honor God only, to not make and worship idols, to not take His name in vain, to keep a Sabbath, to not murder or dishonor parents or commit adultery or bear false witness or covet. These are choices we can make. our sin natures drag us away from obeying them, but even pagans can be faithful spouses and not murder anyone or bear false witness!

In the same way, loving God and loving those around us are decisions we can make as Christians. We finally have the ability to obey because of the Holy Spirit within us, but love is still a decision to be made.

And yet, for love we were created. We read that God IS love -- one of the essences of His character is His commitment to us. The two basic commandments are to love. The longing in every human heart is for love.

That total commitment of one to another, that puts the welfare of the beloved ahead of the welfare of the lover. That is what Jesus did on the cross.

And if we were created for love, then we HAVE to be in this sort of a world. There has to be a level at which all humans are free to choose to respond to God or not. Without that freedom, it would be impossible for human beings to love.

And if one looks at those two commandments, and realizes that every time there is a response to God and a sinner repents that all the angels rejoice, then we may consider that perhaps it is this very thing which does bring our Lord the honor and glory which is the crowing point of the glory of creation itself. Done for Him and by Him, but, in the unsearchable reaches of HIS will, also through us.

So I agree with the Calvinist that we are all created for His glory and honor. But the 'how' question can only be answered, from what I see in the Bible, in terms of love. And love is a decision. And a decision demands the freedom to decide.

So I know there will be disagreement from Calvinists, but now I am curious as to which part of the above is sparking the disagreement before we arrive at the free will conclusion.

Please keep in mind that the freedom to will or to want, for a human, no way implies the ability to follow through! I am only saying that love itself requires the freedom to at least want, and that it is God who answers that with Himself. He does everything after the want part, which is something He has given us.

 

[A4GivenGirl]

To Bob: okay...well...I have the NKJV but its the same... "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction...."eternal/everlasting means that it doesn't end

 

[A4GivenGirl]

Helen, Do you believe that God was fully satisfied in and of Himself and didn't need to create in order to be happy, but chose to do so in order to bring glory unto Himself? Just wondering

 

[npetreley]

Without that freedom [free will], it would be impossible for human beings to love.

That doesn't make sense to me. Why is free will a prerequisite for love?

 

[A4GivenGirl]

One other thing to Helen---Jesus's death on the cross was not only love, but wrath too, as Jesus took the wrath of God that was deserved by sinners.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by A4GivenGirl:
Helen, Do you believe that God was fully satisfied in and of Himself and didn't need to create in order to be happy, but chose to do so in order to bring glory unto Himself? Just wondering

Yup. Why He chose to do this, in the long run, is DEFINITELY beyond my understanding! He certainly never NEEDED us! The fact that He has wanted us is incredible, though, and almost infinitely humbling. A little scary, too, for me. I don't want to disappoint Him! So I'm really counting on Him to get done improving me as fast as possible so I finally won't be disappointing Him. I think He may have to complete the job in heaven? I can't imagine being completed here n earth. But that's a whole 'nother line of things I don't understand...

=========

npetreley, free will is a prerequisite for love simply because love IS a decision. It IS a commitment one makes. It is not programmed into us; it had to be commanded. And a command can be obeyed or refused. In this particular case, because God Himself is love, the obedience or refusal is personal to Him. And, again, the obedience is only possible when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I don't want anyone thinking I am saying it is something we can do on our own! All I am saying is that the want is ours.

"What the world needs now is love, sweet love" is NOT a Christian song -- but it does express the deepest desire in the hearts of men everywhere. They are incapable of the kind of love we all need, unless we have Christ, but the longing exists nevertheless.

========

edited to correct a sentence so badly worded it looked like it was saying the opposite of what I wanted it to say!

[ November 16, 2002, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Helen:
love IS a decision. It IS a commitment one makes.

Amen.

Ken

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
npetreley, free will is a prerequisite for love simply because love IS a decision.

That's not a syllogism. A decision does not necessitate free will, so it does not follow that love requires it. For example, a person in bondage to alchohol may "decide" to have a drink and "decide" what kind of drink, but the decision is driven by the addiction, not free will. One might suggest that the decision to "resist" a drink must be one of free will, since it is contrary to the bondage of the addiction. But even if that were true, it doesn't disprove the former point - that someone also makes decisions out of bondage, which demonstrates that decisions -- just because they're "decisions" -- do not necessitate free will.