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A question for calvinists
- Thread starter Rubato 1
- Start date
Rubato 1 said:
Rubato,
I'll cite Paul as my answer, one who believed in the sovereignty and all-knowing ability of God.
"8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about the troubles we experienced in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself. 9 Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us again. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many." (2 Cor 1:8-11, TNIV, emphasis mine)
Like Paul, I too will continue to pray and ask for the prayers of God's people.
How God chooses to work things out, it's all up to Him. Father knows best!
I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian (as someone has already posted), and I also agree.
If I pray as Jesus taught us: "(Let) Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven," is that a Calvinistic prayer? No, I just find it Biblical.
If I am praying for one who is very sick (perhaps has cancer). I may pray for healing, but at the same time pray for God's will to be done in this person's life. I am praying for healing and God's sovereign will to be done at the same time. Does that make me a Calvinist or free-willer? I believe in both the free will of man and the sovereignty of God. I do not believe in either Calvinism nor Arminianism.
If I pray as Jesus taught us: "(Let) Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven," is that a Calvinistic prayer? No, I just find it Biblical.
If I am praying for one who is very sick (perhaps has cancer). I may pray for healing, but at the same time pray for God's will to be done in this person's life. I am praying for healing and God's sovereign will to be done at the same time. Does that make me a Calvinist or free-willer? I believe in both the free will of man and the sovereignty of God. I do not believe in either Calvinism nor Arminianism.
This still implies that God responded after the prayers were offered, ie, God's favor hinged upon the Christian's choice to pray.TCGreek said:
When Isaiah said 'let us reason together' was he saying something what was unreasonable, that when you think about it, it really is no use to pray, because God already decided what would happen; the only reason to pray is some kind of joke or game God has running through time?
When Paul reasoned with the Athenians, did he expect the thinkers of the day to accept the philosophical basis that we should choose Christ because God already determined that we would or wouldn't; that our choices are really no choices at all?
When God gives us a command, do we really have the capacity to obey or disobey?
Is this not more like a powerless God, an impersonal God, an unjust God?
Is this justice, to condemn the defendant based on the Judge's actions? or to condemn some arbitrarily while allowing some guilty to go free?
Rubato 1 said:
You have raised some crucial issues.
Have you ever heard of open theism or process theism?
Open theism says that God is still open to the future and doesn't know the future, only general possibilities, nothing for sure.
Process theism says that God is becoming[edited for spelling] what He will eventually be.
Do you pray? What do you believe about the God who answers prayer?
Last edited by a moderator:
He must be to some degree, right? So the question is, to what degree does God know [at least the details of] the future, and to what degree does he leave certain details open to the results of our choices?TCGreek said:
So, God sees the 'end from the beginning,' but not all of the middle parts. This is where our choices shape the particulars of history. The end is settled, but parts of the future are yet to be determined.
Hmm.
Rubato 1 said:
What you just posted is open theism is practical terms. I'm no open theist.
To say that God doesn't know what are the "middle parts" is not only to deny the omniscience of God but also the biblical record.
Since some 300 prophecies about the coming Messiah have been fulfilled, which by the way, are not The End, but Middle parts, according to you, How do we account for these fulfilled prophecies?
Okay, God knows some of the middle (because He already decided it), but not all of it (maybe not most of it). Time is like a dotted line--certain things, like the circumstances of Christ's life are determined ahead of time (this would not required the details to be determined from the beginning of time either. Some things could have been determined midway, like the tribe of Judah, the family of Judah, the virgin Mary, etc.), while other things (like whether we will pray for TCG's back) are not known--not in existence--until the point that we make the choice of what we are going to do. If they are not in existence yet, then God still knows all things, but we have the choices to make for ourselves. Thank you, TCGreek.
Is this a representation of a soverign God who grants us free will?
Is this a representation of a soverign God who grants us free will?
These links do me no good because the under the first, he constructs my argument for me, and I would not follow the path that he says I imply.The Archangel said:
The second link is not helpful because I want to ask the questions, not Prayerless, whom I fear is bound by Piper's predestination to ask certain questions in a certain way.
I'm not saying he's wrong, just that the arguments there hold no water.
IMO,
R1
Rubato,
This is a very complex question you ask regarding prayer and it is part of a bigger issue -- What does God foreknow and what does He foreordain?
Does God foreknow your prayer and foreordain His answer? (Free will)
Does God foreordain your prayer and foreordain His answer? (Calvinism/determinsim)
Does God not even know about your prayer, it surprises Him, and He ordains how He will answer it when He knows it? (Open theism)
Does God foreknow all the possible prayers you might make under certain conditions, foreordain the necessary conditions so that He can answer as He wills, and thus brings all things to the conclusion that He has planned? (Molinism/middle knowledge)
Do you see what a "can of worms" you have opened up??? :laugh:
To me, it is quite obvious that if God doesn't have "foreknowledge" (whereas scripture says He does) then any matrix/system that denies foreknowledge to God denies His omniscience and is, therefore by deductive reasoning, wrong.
Know further that, according to Calvinism, foreknowledge = foreordination (God has chosen whom He has chosen). That is, there is really no such thing as foreknowledge.
Now you should be able to choose the correct view, no?
skypair
This is a very complex question you ask regarding prayer and it is part of a bigger issue -- What does God foreknow and what does He foreordain?
Does God foreknow your prayer and foreordain His answer? (Free will)
Does God foreordain your prayer and foreordain His answer? (Calvinism/determinsim)
Does God not even know about your prayer, it surprises Him, and He ordains how He will answer it when He knows it? (Open theism)
Does God foreknow all the possible prayers you might make under certain conditions, foreordain the necessary conditions so that He can answer as He wills, and thus brings all things to the conclusion that He has planned? (Molinism/middle knowledge)
Do you see what a "can of worms" you have opened up??? :laugh:
To me, it is quite obvious that if God doesn't have "foreknowledge" (whereas scripture says He does) then any matrix/system that denies foreknowledge to God denies His omniscience and is, therefore by deductive reasoning, wrong.
Know further that, according to Calvinism, foreknowledge = foreordination (God has chosen whom He has chosen). That is, there is really no such thing as foreknowledge.
Now you should be able to choose the correct view, no?
skypair
Rubato 1 said:
I find it interesting that you're willing to limit the knowledge of God as a mere mortal.
Who granted that prerogative to you?
First, you said God didn't know the "middle parts."
Now you say God only knows some of the "middle parts."
I'm thankful that God is not like man.
At any rate, I'll let David speak for me:
"You have searched me, LORD,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, LORD, know it completely.
5 You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain. (Ps 139:1-6, TNIV, emphasis mine)
webdog said:Arminians pray because they want God to be calvinistic in certain circumstances
Are there any Arminians on this board?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Scripture
When we put His word before us, it is He that leads us not us.
We pray we reach out, He will do as His word say's, not as we say. We don't think we are powerful than God or think we can tell God what to do, but we can trust God to do as His word say's.
Trust in Jesus and none of you will be disappointed.
When we put His word before us, it is He that leads us not us.
We pray we reach out, He will do as His word say's, not as we say. We don't think we are powerful than God or think we can tell God what to do, but we can trust God to do as His word say's.
Trust in Jesus and none of you will be disappointed.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Scripture
James 5:17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops. 19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.