A question for calvinists

One of my favorite, most treasured scripture, psa109!

First, Elijah was like us. Wow! What doubts he had! Half of getting your prayers answered is BELIEVING that He hears you and loves you! The other half is His will, IMO.

skypair

 

We understand all we 1) need to and 2) want to, Amy.

skypair

 

1) Absolutely

2) I don't know about you, but I definitely do not understand all that I want to.

 

Why does it have to be either open or process theism? Why can't we just admit that we are not God, and don't know the magnitude of how He deals with His creation?

We see much Scripture dealing with God changing His mind and responding to man. Remember when God told Moses to move out of the way as He was about to destroy the Israelites...and subsequently through His seed the covenant promise would be realized? Was He kidding when He said that? Lying? Truthful? The text sure seems to imply that AFTER listening to Moses' reasoning He then relented. Is that open theism? I say no...it's God being God, and man not knowing how an omniscient God could deal with man in that manner.

 

Because there are such things as open and process forms of theism. Some of the things expressed in this thread, maybe, can fit in either camp.

But I do agree with what you said. That is where I'm. That's why I quoted Psalm 139:1-6.

But I don't think open or process theism are viable options. They lead to heresies, IMO.

Webdog, I accept wholeheartedly your use of Scripture on this matter: God has his place and man his.

 

Webdog,

My friend, you could not be more wrong with this passage. First off, the structure of this passage shows that God was testing Moses in much the same way He tested Abraham.

Why? Because earlier, in Egypt, before Moses killed the Egyptian slave master, he thought through his might that he would deliver his kinsmen. Acts 7 says:

24 And seeing one of them being wronged, he defended the oppressed man and avenged him by striking down the Egyptian. 25 He [Moses] supposed that his brothers would understand that God was giving them salvation by his hand, but they did not understand.

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What God was apparently offering Moses was an unfathomable honor. But, Moses didn't take it. Why? He was more interested in God's glory than his own (quite a change from the old days).

God and Moses both knew that God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob cold be fulfilled by God by bringing a new nation from Moses because Moses was an Israelite. So, that's not the issue.

What is the issue is God testing Moses in a way that Moses argues to God that His glory would be diminished, in the eyes of the Egyptians, if He destroyed the people. Also, we see, in Exodus 33, Moses pleading for God Himself to go with the people, again, quite a change in Moses from the old days.

So the point here is the testing of Moses, by God, and we see that Moses has become quite the intercessor for his kinsman rather than trying to set himself up as a the defacto-dictator. No longer is Moses interested in himself, he is interested in performing God's calling on his life to the absolute best of his abilities and he knows, beyond a doubt, that God must be present (physically) if that is to happen.

Moses passed his test with flying colors (yes, only to fail another later), just as Abraham passed his test of sacrificing Isaac.

Also, one of the truths that we see in scripture over and over and over is that God simply does not "Change his mind." Many times when the scripture uses that language it is a simple anthropomorphism. Otherwise, the scripture would contradict itself and, worse yet, God would contradict Himself.

Certainly, as you suggest, there is more than a bit of mystery when it comes to God--what He does and how He does it. But, the scriptures are sufficient, they contain what He wants us to know (not that the scriptures are exhaustive of the knowledge and practice of God). One thing He has stated repeatedly is that He does not change His mind.

Also, there is a biblical order of initiation and response and God is always the initiator and man is always the responder. God acts and man responds. False, pagan religions (such as seen in the episode of Elijah and the prophets of Baal) always, in some way, turn this order up-side-down. The prophets of Baal thought there acts of devotion would entice Baal to respond. This is not the biblical pattern for worship or dealing with God or His dealings with us.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

:thumbs: God's timing on 2). I admit what I wanted to know wasn't always at my fingertips. Often there was much praying and study. But I will say this -- scripture says that "when He [Holy Spirit] comes, He will lead you into ALL wisdom." I believe that.

I believe the lack of knowing is on our part. We don't want to know for our own reasons and Isaiah gives us a clue on this one. "...Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;... 7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: 8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. " Ezek 14:4, 7-8

Israel, God's former people, fell into this problem when they inquired of God, Ezek 20:3. God cannot speak to him while he holds onto false theology but God will put that idol in front of his face and, barring him putting away his idol, will cut him off from among his people (re: Catholics, Mormons, SDA's, etc. All of these are groups with false theologies whom God has warned and cut off from His true church).

skypair

 

Rubato --- are you there?

 

God

God doesn't lie to us to test us.

What we learn from moses is God is going to do what His word say's deliever His people.

There is nothing wrong with using our free will that God gave to us to do things for God as long as we give Him the glory for giving us the right to do it.

 

I'm sorry, but it is my belief your view is not consistant with the rest of Scripture, and takes presupposition and eisegesis to come to this conclusion. God doesn't lie to man in order to test man. He places us in circumstances or places circumstances in front of us...but never dishonesty. I understand your take on this passage, because it is the only one that will allow for a calvinistic stance...but I will just take it at face value that God said He was going to do something...Moses replied...God then decided to not go through with it. How this works with God being omniscient...who knows...but it He cannot be put into a theological box to explain how He worked in that situation.

 

Paths

1 Samuel 15:29
He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

God word teaches us that God doesn't change His mind and He doesn't, but He will change our path by His word.

God will tell Abraham to go kill his son and that is the direction He wanted him to go, but when he got there to change Abraham direction for God to provide the sacrifice.

 

Unfortunately, your take on the passage creates a contradiction in scripture.

Numbers 23:19

19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

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So, rather than create a contradiction with incomplete theology, I'll let scripture interpret scripture. Since God does not lie and since God does not change His mind, it must be that the Exodus 32 passage is dealing with a test. This is the only option that takes all the biblical data into consideration.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

...then you also have the contradiction it seems where God stated He wished that He would have never created man.

 

I guess I don't understand what is wrong with having an "incomplete theology", considering only God is "complete", and every theological position is incomplete. Are you saying calvinism is a "complete theology"?
Why should the passage in Exodus be filtered through this, and not vice versa?

*edited...brain cramp

 

...there are many more Scriptures along the same lines. I believe it is dangerous to take a majority of these Scriptures and filter them through a single verse. I believe the proper hermeuntetical approach is to take this verse and see how it applies to the majority in context.

 

If you re-read my post (and last couple)...I am saying the exact same thing you are. I'm agreeing with you