A question for calvinists

[Jarthur001]

"The prayer of the righteous availeth much". How exactly does this "change man"? Are you going to deny the many passages dealing with God stating He would do something, and then not doing it based on what man asked Him? I know it throws a monkey wrench into determinism
Scripture states God has repented (changed His mind)...and Scripture does not teach open theism. You are wrong on both counts.

Lets take one passage at a time.

BTW....God changing his mind is OTheism.


http://www.carm.org/open/tenets.htm

What are the basic tenets of open theism?


Following are the basic tenets of open theism. It is with these presuppositions that open theists approach the Bible and interpret it.

God's greatest attribute is love

This attribute of God is often elevated above His other attributes and used to interpret God in such a way as to be a cosmic gentleman who wants all to be saved, mourns over their loss,

Man's free will is truly free in the libertarian sense.

Man's free will is not restricted by his sinful nature but is equally able to make choices between different options.

By contrast, compatibilist free will states that a person is restricted and affected by his nature and that his nature not only affects his free will choices, but also limits his ability to equally choose among different options.

God does not know the future

This is either because God cannot know the future because it does not exist, or...

It is because God chooses to not know the future even though it can be known.

God takes risks

Because God does not know the future exhaustively, He must take risks with people whose future free will choices are unknowable.

God learns

Because God does not know the future exhaustively, He learns as the realities of the future occur.

God makes mistakes

Because God does not know all things and because He is dealing with free will creatures (whose future choices He does not know), God can make mistakes in dealing with people. Therefore, God would change His plans accordingly.

God changes His mind

God can change His mind on issues depending on what He learns and what He discovers people do. Usually, God's change of mind is due to Him being surprised by something He didn't not plan for or expect.

As it turns out...Gods 1st choice IS never wrong.

Now...post your verse that you are having problems believing...and we will address it.

 

[psalms109:31]

Biblical

You are a true master of subtility, sir.
You remind me of a Biblical character.
Chew on that.

I have experienced many biblical characters in my life. The solid thing in my life is scripture. Jesus is my sure foundation and His word. You can believe what you want and it is easier to put a man down, but I can do anything through Christ who strengthens me.

I'll chew on every word that comes from the mouth of God and spit out the words of man.

Let every man be a liar and God be the truth.

 

[psalms109:31]

Parable

There was this man who owned a farm and said God provides the seed the water I'll just let God take over my farm, he ended up going out of business.

Another one baught the farm and he tilled the ground pulled up all the rocks and bad roots, planted each seed at the proper depth and irrigated it.

That next year crop was bountiful.

The man who once owned it said that God had blessed him with a good crop, and the man said you should of seen it when God alone was working the field.

You all can believe what you want and let God do the work that God called us to do and see what crops that will be produced.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I have experienced many biblical characters in my life. The solid thing in my life is scripture. Jesus is my sure foundation and His word. You can believe what you want and it is easier to put a man down, but I can do anything through Christ who strengthens me.

I'll chew on every word that comes from the mouth of God and spit out the words of man.

Let every man be a liar and God be the truth.

Oh, pulllleeezzee !!
Stow it, man.
Stop playing martyr among brethren.
You are a far cry from martyr, you are an accuser of brethren.

Alright, since you do not want to confront what I'm calling you on, let me tell you straight to your face what it is.
Since this thread is directing a question at Calvinists, and you know that Calvinists hold to the doctrine of particular election, you directed your posts at that belief alluding to it as a doctrine that makes God a liar, and to Calvinists as tailoring the Scriptures to fit their doctrine.

That is just about as uncharitable as Calvinists accusing Arminians of worshipping a God that is weak and unable to save anyone, and, yes, I have been guilty of that as well, but of late I have been trying to rethink my opinions and try to be gentle to fellow believers, and it is just tiresome to keep reading one and the other putting down one and the other.

This board is for debate and argumentation and efforts to try and present a rational and well-ordered defense of what one holds on to, I believe.
But let me tell you something, mister, in case your ego is so bloated about how much you are "founded" on Jesus and His word.

Here are the cold, hard facts that Calvinists or Arminians ought to remember:
Jesus Christ did not go up that cross two thousand or so years ago to save you from the eternal penalties of your sin because you have the right theology, or because he looked down through centuries of time and saw you will be on a correct theological foundation.

He went up that cross because He loved His Father, and because He loved you, period.

Don't give me that bull dung about "my foundation is the word of God", because in case you haven't noticed, even out and out cultists say so, and look where they are.

No one is surefootedly founded on every point and angle of the word of God at this point in time and the only time we know for a fact that we are is when we are seated in front of the Savior and receiving our corrections straight from Him.

If anyone is surefootedly founded on the word of God then you wouldn't have Calvinists and Arminians and Semi-Pelagians and what-have-you trying to pee on each other's foot !

We would be one big happy family.

So deflate your ego a little, and try to look at Calvinists as fellow sinners for whom the blood of Christ was shed also, and maybe you will look obedient to the command of Jesus whom you profess to love.

His command ?

Love one another, that the world may know that ye are my disciples. A command that He gave to a bunch of sinners who had zealots and doubters among them, just as He has a bunch of Calvinists and Arminians at this time.

 

[psalms109:31]

Calvinist and arminist

I'm not a calvinist or arminist, I believe the scripture and both calvinist and arminist fall short of the glory of God.

Satan is the acuser of the brethren not me, so don't play that card.

I showed where calvinism dosn't add up to scripture, and scripture will be my witness and the witness against us all.

Either God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge or men call Paul God and the Holy Spirit a liar.

I'm not lying nor the scripture's.

We all know that Israel is the elect of God. They were cut out for unbelieve. We Gentiles are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

It is the church that was chosen before the foundation of the world, because the church not individual that Paul's letters was talking to.

Anyone who puts there trust in Jesus will not be disappointed, don't worry if you are the elect of God or not you put your trust in Jesus and you will be disappointed.

The amount saved will be like the sands of the seashore.

We have Good news.

 

[Rubato 1]

This is monergism 101. It is God that "FOUND" Noah.


This is the 2nd statement found in Gen 6. Notice it ends with..."But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD".

Now when did God show grace and why? Was it because of what Noah did, or did Noah do, because of Gods grace?

In other words, if we were to ask this today....

Does God save people because they are good people?

God does not save people because they are good, but one could argue that Noah's condition of 'uprightness' was in that he was seeking after God. What other criteria for 'uprightness' was there in Noah's day (this is the same criteria today)? And since Noah was thirsty for God, God favored him.

Are there other passages whose sentence sturcture is such that the one 'finding' (noah) is not really the one searching, as in 'Noah found grace' means 'God found Noah'? is this interpretation legitimate?

I enjoyed reading the other parts of your post; it was very interesting, things I had not heard before...

 

[psalms109:31]

I'm not a calvinist or arminist, I believe the scripture and both calvinist and arminist fall short of the glory of God.

Satan is the acuser of the brethren not me, so don't play that card.

I showed where calvinism dosn't add up to scripture, and scripture will be my witness and the witness against us all.

Either God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge or men call Paul God and the Holy Spirit a liar.

I'm not lying nor the scripture's.

We all know that Israel is the elect of God. They were cut out for unbelieve. We Gentiles are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

It is the church that was chosen before the foundation of the world, because the church not individual that Paul's letters was talking to.

The amount saved will be like the sands of the seashore.

We have Good news.

Anyone who puts there trust in Jesus will not be disappointed, don't worry if you are the elect of God or not you put your trust in Jesus and you will not be disappointed.

 

[webdog]

BTW....God changing his mind is OTheism.

God not knowing the future is open theism...God changing His mind is seen throughout Scripture. Accept it and quit trying to fit it into your theological box by explaining away how the Scripture has to be interpreted using your model.

 

[TCGreek]

God not knowing the future is open theism...God changing His mind is seen throughout Scripture. Accept it and quit trying to fit it into your theological box by explaining away how the Scripture has to be interpreted using your model.

But what is meant by "God changing his mind"?

 

[webdog]

But what is meant by "God changing his mind"?

Scripture doesn't say. For instance Jonah 3:10.

We know God's character is unchangeable (love, justice, holiness, etc.). God's view of sin is also unchangeable, so as man's view (or in the above Scripture, Nineveh) changes, God's attitude toward them must also change as God's attitude and view of sin does not change. Since His attitude towards sin and righteousness doesn't change, His dealings with man / cities must change as they change their attitude and view of sin and righteousness. How this all works with His omniscience and time is a mystery.

 

[TCGreek]

Scripture doesn't say. For instance Jonah 3:10.

We know God's character is unchangeable (love, justice, holiness, etc.). God's view of sin is also unchangeable, so as man's view (or in the above Scripture, Nineveh) changes, God's attitude toward them must also change as God's attitude and view of sin does not change. Since His attitude towards sin and righteousness doesn't change, His dealings with man / cities must change as they change their attitude and view of sin and righteousness. How this all works with His omniscience and time is a mystery.

I got you.

I've read various explanations by commentators who believe they must rationalize everything.

Sometimes God is portrayed as a puppet master, and we, well, puppets.

But I like your explanation best.

 

[webdog]

I wanted to add to my last post, His dealing with man can change even AFTER He has declared something ("I will wipe out and destroy the city"). This is How God repents / changes His mind.

 

[psalms109:31]

Pride

There is nothing wrong with faith in the word of God and knowing that prayer can really change not just our direction but God's direction with us.

We can be in the belly of the whale about to die and a prayer of repentance and God will release us from death.

Do not confuse having faith in the word of God as being pridefull.

 

[Jarthur001]

God not knowing the future is open theism...

And...as you have already been shown...that God changes His mind. I gave you one resource and you will not change YOUR mind. Allow me to show you even more sources.

1) BARRICK, WILLIAM D.
"The Opennes of God: Does Prayer Change God?"
" His "change of mind" was a tool to elicit a change of response in Moses. Moses' prayer changed Moses, not God."

2) Open Theism - Part 1
(April/May 2002 - Volume 8, Issue 3)
http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/read_articles.asp?ID=69

Traditional or classical theism has dominated not only most of church history but Jewish history as well. Open theist Richard Rice, although obviously disenchanted with classical theism, captures well the essence of the classical understanding of God when he writes,

This traditional, or conventional, view emphasizes God’s sovereignty, majesty and glory. God’s will is the final explanation for all that happens; God’s glory is the ultimate purpose that all creation serves. In his infinite power, God brought the world into existence in order to fulfill his purposes and display his glory. Since his sovereign will is irresistible, whatever he dictates comes to pass and every event plays its role in his grand design. Nothing can thwart or hinder the accomplishment of his purposes. God’s relation to the world is thus one of mastery and control.[2]

Open theism challenges every tenet of the above definition, denying God’s sovereignty, His omniscience and His glory. Pinnock lays the groundwork with this definition of what he calls the openness of God.

In broad strokes, it takes the following form. God, in grace, grants humans significant freedom to cooperate with or work against God’s will for their lives, and he enters into dynamic, give-and-take relationships with us. The Christian life involves a genuine interaction between God and human beings. We respond to God’s gracious initiatives and God responds to our responses… and on it goes. God takes risks in this give-and-take relationship, yet he is endlessly resourceful and competent in working toward his ultimate goals. Sometimes God alone decides how to accomplish these goals. On other occasions, God works with human decisions, adapting his own plans to fit the changing situation. God does not control everything that happens. Rather, he is open to receiving input from his creatures. In loving dialogue, God invites us to participate with him to bring the future into being.

3) Openness View
"Openness of God" theology
http://www.pilgrimcovenant.com/weeklyQA/wklyQA_021124.html

Prayer is an effectual activity whereby angels and humans can function as God’s counselors and change His mind.

There are many more places to prove this if this does not work for you. You may want to read this...

THE OPENNESS OF GOD:
DOES PRAYER CHANGE GOD?
William D. Barrick
Professor of Old Testament

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj12g.pdf

But also you really need to read this simple take on openness, because it sounds just like you....

Open theism, also known as free will theism, is a theological movement that has developed within Evangelical and post-evangelical Protestant Christianity as a response to certain ideas regarded by some as a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian theology. Several ideas within Classical theism (a designation which is not to be taken as inclusive of all of orthodox theism) state that God is immutable, impassible, and timeless. Classical Theists also believed that God fully determines the future; thus, humanity does not have libertarian free will, or, if free, that its freedom must necessarily be compatible with God's determining actions.
Contrary to many of these ideas within classical theism, open theism is a foundational theology that attempts to explain the practical relationship between the free will of man and the sovereignty of God. Sharing a base with traditional Arminian theology, open theism expounds on the idea of free will. One of the key advocates for open theism, Dr. John E. Sanders, describes the view of God’s sovereignty:

That God changes in some respects implies that God is temporal, working with us in time. God, at least since Creation, experiences duration. God is everlasting through time rather than timelessly eternal... We believe that God could have known every event of the future had God decided to create a fully determined universe. However, in our view, God decided to create beings with interdeterministic freedom which implies that God chose to create a universe in which the future is not entirely knowable, even for God. For many open theists, the “future” is not a present reality — it does not exist — and God knows reality as it is.[1]

Practically, open theism makes the case for a personal God who is able to be influenced through prayer, decisions, and actions of people. Although unknowing of the future, God has predictive (anticipatory) foreknowledge of the future through his intimate knowledge of each individual. As such, he is able to anticipate the future, yet remains fluid to respond and react to prayer and decisions made either contrary or advantageous to His plan or presuppositions.

Call me if you still do not understand.

God changing His mind is seen throughout Scripture.

I rest my case. You are very "open". Or is this yet another time you will "change your mind" as you did with the "free grace" crowd, once you see the error?

Accept it and quit trying to fit it into your theological box by explaining away how the Scripture has to be interpreted using your model.

I am Classical theism. So was your best buddy John Wesley.

 

[Jarthur001]

I wanted to add to my last post, His dealing with man can change even AFTER He has declared something ("I will wipe out and destroy the city"). This is How God repents / changes His mind.

More poor understanding of the truth.

Why you are wrong...

Will God change his mind and stop loving you?

If He will change his mind...then you have no way to know if he will not change and stop loving you.

Two years ago, Pastor Larry and I and others went over this passage with your dear friend and follow free-willer Bob Ryan showing his errors on this passage. You must not have read it. Take the time and look it up. If you still don't understand we can go over it again.

 

[Jarthur001]

I got you.

I've read various explanations by commentators who believe they must rationalize everything.

Sometimes God is portrayed as a puppet master, and we, well, puppets.

But I like your explanation best.

The MAIN people that portray the puppet master idea, are the free-willers, for they do not understand real calvinism

 

[Jarthur001]

Are there other passages whose sentence sturcture is such that the one 'finding' (noah) is not really the one searching, as in 'Noah found grace' means 'God found Noah'? is this interpretation legitimate?

Sure...

Read the stories of Paul and Abraham. This also would be the main point of Romans 9. Notice the would found there..."For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil".

Salvation is not based on being good.

Paul was not seeking God, but killing believers.

Abraham was raised pagan and we have no reason to believe he followed the true God before his calling. Please read from gty.org below.

Now Abraham lived in a city called Ur, U‑r, very short name.

It was a busy city, As best, archaeologists can identify the city probably had about 300 thousand inhabitants. It was a commercial city, a very important city located in Mesopotamia which is on the Persian Gulf... in those days located in the area of two great rivers: the Tigris and the Euphrates. Archaeologists, in dealing with this ancient site, have told us that it probably located itself in about four square miles of area. They also have determined that the people, for the most part, were highly educated, very proficient in math, proficient in astronomy, adept at weaving and engraving and commonly wrote. That is they had reduced their language to writing even in the time of Abraham by the twelfth chapter of Genesis and in writing they put their writing down on clay tablets.



They worshiped multiplied gods. They were what we call "Polytheistic," They had many gods, the foremost of which was a god by the name of Nanna, N‑‑a‑n‑n‑‑a, who was the moon god. Now Abraham's father's name was Terah, T‑e‑r‑a‑h, and according to Joshua 24:2 he was an idolatrous man. Fe worshiped idols. So, Abraham was raised in a pagan environment. He was raised in an important, educated kind of place, a place of some importance, a place where they may have been effective trades as well as splendid agriculture. But he was raised a pagan. He was raised in a family where they worshiped idols.



God came to this‑man Abraham in the midst of his pagan environment and Fe called to him to follow a new path. He said to him, "Abraham, I want you to leave everything." Notice verse 1: "The Lord said to Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred and from thy father's house unto a land that I will show thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee and in thee (or through thee) shall all families of the earth be blessed."



Now, this is a sovereign call. We don't know any preliminary information about Abraham, really... except as chapter 11 verse 27 tells us he was begotten by Terah. We really don't know much about him, but God called him. And people have often asked the question why and the answer is because God is God and He calls whomever He wants, And Ye called Abraham and if He had called somebody else, we would have asked the same question with the same answer. Now God promised him three things: land, verse ‑1; seed, verse 2‑‑a nation; blessing, verse 3. A land, a nation, a blessing. And God said through him would come the hope of salvation for the world. Through his loins all families of the earth would be blessed. And so today, we who are saved, we' who know salvation in Jesus Christ according to Galatians 3:9, are blessed with Abraham the believer. We have been blessed because the seed came through his loins.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Salvation is not based on being good.

Aye.
And in the same sense we can say that damnation is not based on one's being evil.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

God teaches us through our mistakes.

It is a matter of faith. The only way to learn to ride a bike is know you are going to fall down plenty of times but to get back up.

Don't let failures bring you down, but believe every word that comes from the mouth of God and don't let men try to explain it away.

There is no contradiction in the bible just men instead of believing scripture want to fit it in something man-made.

You cannot fit scripture into a box like a five point.

There is to much to learn from scripture to put it in a box.

See we are on a path and there will be twist and turns. We are going to make mistakes and fall of the path that God has for us and then we are on the wide road. We need to get back on the road that leads to life and that is trusting in Jesus.

The wise and the learned are that, but they are just explaining away the truth and God will continue to hide the truth from them.

I fell down many times, but it reminds me to keep my eyes on Jesus because He is our salvation

 

[nunatak]

Aye.
And in the same sense we can say that damnation is not based on one's being evil.

What is damnation based on?