A Question for Calvinust here (Part 2)

[Iconoclast]

steaver

That is basically what happened to me as well. After a couple of years of study and prayer, I fully believed Calvinism was flawed and freewill choice made perfect sense as elaborated from the scriptures.

You can basically say anything you want, however it is not the same at all:thumbs:

I believed with my mind and spirit, I heard no voice, I was simply able to comprehend what I could not prior.

Not at all...you have never shown that you believe it even still.

I suppose I could say it was Divine Enablement which caused me to believe God's plan was freewill choice.

The false philosophy and carnal reasoning the comes up with the idea of freewill does not need any enablement at all.....it is the default position of those in Adam.

I suppose those who do not believe in freewill choice fall under Matt 13 and John 10.

and 1 cor 2:thumbs:

Afterall, it is God who must Enable folks to believe via the Holy Spirit. Not Cause, but Enable, the choice then falls in the lap of every individual to either surrender themselves to Jesus Christ as Lord, or continue rejecting His offer of Salvation.

Yes....there will not be anyone in heaven who does not know and worship Jesus as Lord.

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan

I am saying that God describes it as conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness

Yes...you say something that scripture does not:thumbs:

Romans 10
“
The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Not at all.....believers...believe:thumbs:

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

Only to those who cannot grasp it.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.

That is in your mind...not the bible:thumbs:

The Bible never claims that to repent, or to confess, or to receive Christ is "salvation by works" --

It never says it is not either....

God "Draw all mankind unto Him" John 12:32.

Explain exactly what you think this means....how did this happen in the year 167 ad?
How did God all men on the face of the planet?

Did God also draw those who were in the grave already.....before you and others abuse this text explain it to all of us...:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

According to the Bible - God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.


Indeed the Bible never calls confession/repentance/ receiving Christ as "salvation by works" -- not one single text in that regard.

Rather it commands it - and even gives a "sequence" for what "results in salvation" that Calvinism does not permit.

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

According to the Bible - God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.

It is only by ignoring texts such as those given above - in this case Romans 10 specifically that Calvinism's system of "extreme inference" and "redefinition of terms" can even survive.

Breathing is not "Salvation by works"

And following the Romans 10 model that "results in salvation" is not salvation by works.


John 16 is a pre-cross statement of Christ about the Holy Spirit convicting the World of sin.

John 3:16 is a pre-cross statement of Christ - the "God so loved the World" not just the elect.

John 12:32 Christ draws "all mankind" unto him.

Explain exactly what you think this means....how did this happen in the year 167 ad?
How did God all men on the face of the planet?

Did God also draw those who were in the grave already.....before you and others abuse this text explain it to all of us...:thumbs:

In Matt 17 - before the cross .. Moses and Elijah are with Christ on the mount of transfiguration.

Heb 4 "the Gospel was preached to just JUST as it was to them also".

1 Cor 10:4 "they all drank from the same spiritual Rock -- and that Rock was Christ"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

look at "God's Lament" where HE Himself asks the question "What more could I have DONE" -- it does not say "what more could you (lost sinner) have done".

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God's Lament
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT]

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan

John 12:32 Christ draws "all mankind" unto him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post

Explain exactly what you think this means....how did this happen in the year 167 ad?
How did God all men on the face of the planet?

Did God also draw those who were in the grave already.....before you and others abuse this text explain it to all of us...

In Matt 17 - before the cross .. Moses and Elijah are with Christ on the mount of transfiguration.

Heb 4 "the Gospel was preached to just JUST as it was to them also".

1 Cor 10:4 "they all drank from the same spiritual Rock -- and that Rock was Christ"

in Christ,

Bob

This does not begin to honestly answer the question.
Can any of you men answer this question?

to use Hebrews 4,and 1 cor 10 does not answer the question at all....

YOU want to claim...Jn 12 speaks of All men who were ever born being drawn to Jesus.

It does not mean that. it does not mean that then, It does not mean it now...

So you do not wiggle of the hook.....

When Jesus is on the cross declaring...it is finished....How did that DRAW all men everywhere to HIM? as you suggest..

in 33 ad how did it draw a man in central China, a man in south America, a man in Alaska, ...explain it specifically step by step....how those who have lived and died without even hearing about or knowing Jesus ....how were they drawn to Him??

The three verses you offered were not even close.....no sense posting if you cannot answer this in detail, as you claims are empty without any explanation.

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan

look at "God's Lament" where HE Himself asks the question

The biblical God does not need to lament. Learn about the biblical God...study His attributes, then come back and talk to us.


http://carm.org/anthropomorphism-god-relates-us-human-terms

 

[Yeshua1]

BobRyan


Yes...you say something that scripture does not:thumbs:



Not at all.....believers...believe:thumbs:


Only to those who cannot grasp it.



That is in your mind...not the bible:thumbs:


It never says it is not either....



Explain exactly what you think this means....how did this happen in the year 167 ad?
How did God all men on the face of the planet?

Did God also draw those who were in the grave already.....before you and others abuse this text explain it to all of us...:thumbs:

Conditional salvation reeks of his false prophetess, as the scriptures clearly teach to us either we have eternal life or not. period!

 

[BobRyan]

look at "God's Lament" where HE Himself asks the question "What more could I have DONE" -- it does not say "what more could you (lost sinner) have done".

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God's Lament
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT]

(don't you just love how they pretend not to notice this post??)

 

[Yeshua1]

(don't you just love how they pretend not to notice this post??)

God did in and through the Cross of Christ and His resurrection ALL that could and needed to be done to save sinners, so again, how are calvinists ignoring that?

You seem to be ignoring eternal life in christ as without conditions, is it is nfree gift or not?

 

[BobRyan]

I am saying that God describes it as conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness


Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.

The Bible never claims that to repent, or to confess, or to receive Christ is "salvation by works" --

Rather the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9

it never says "And such would be salvation by works"

The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

=========================

Both Romans 10 and Rev 3 are stated in the form of a "response" to the choice that man makes.

God "Draw all mankind unto Him" John 12:32.

God "convicts the World of sin and righteousness and justice" John 16.

God "knocks on the door" such that if "ANYONE" hears and opens the door - He will come in.

God sends Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1 John 2:2.

Yet stops short of forcing the will - of changing the nature of man prior to the free will choice of man to accept the Gospel.

HE does not "bust down the door and let Himself in"

BobRyan


Yes...you say something that scripture does not:thumbs:

Not at all.....believers...believe:thumbs:

Only to those who cannot grasp it.

That is in your mind...not the bible:thumbs:

It never says it is not either....

Explain exactly what you think this means....how did this happen in the year 167 ad?
How did God all men on the face of the planet?

Did God also draw those who were in the grave already.....before you and others abuse this text explain it to all of us...:thumbs:

Either you are unware that God is infinite, all knowing , all powerful
or you are unware that John 16 was spoken before the cross,
and that Romans 10 states that "nature itself" brought the gospel to all mankind in both OT (Rom 10) and NT (Rom 2, Rom 1).

And that the Bible teaching of the Gospel for all mankind was given before the cross according to Gal 3:7, John 8:50, Heb 4:1.

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4.

Peter describes the OT Christ as the "Spirit of Christ" - in them. 1Peter 1
11 "seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

No wonder Enoch and Elijah were translated.
.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God did in and through the Cross of Christ and His resurrection ALL that could and needed to be done to save sinners, so again, how are calvinists ignoring that?

You seem to be ignoring eternal life in christ as without conditions, is it is nfree gift or not?

Which bible text in my post are you addressing?

any of them?? even one??

 

[Yeshua1]

Either you are unware that God is infinite, all knowing , all powerful
or you are unware that John 16 was spoken before the cross,
and that Romans 10 states that "nature itself" brought the gospel to all mankind in both OT (Rom 10) and NT (Rom 2, Rom 1).

And that the Bible teaching of the Gospel for all mankind was given before the cross according to Gal 3:7, John 8:50, Heb 4:1.

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4.

Peter describes the OT Christ as the "Spirit of Christ" - in them. 1Peter 1
11 "seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

No wonder Enoch and Elijah were translated.
.

in Christ,

Bob

the Church was not OT isreal, and you cannot take the law of the old covenant and try to ream it into the New One, for its either all grace or all law...

SDA STILL HOLD TO IT BEING ALL LAW....

 

[BobRyan]

Either you are unware that God is infinite, all knowing , all powerful
or you are unware that John 16 was spoken before the cross,
and that Romans 10 states that "nature itself" brought the gospel to all mankind in both OT (Rom 10) and NT (Rom 2, Rom 1).

And that the Bible teaching of the Gospel for all mankind was given before the cross according to Gal 3:7, John 8:50, Heb 4:1.

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4.

Peter describes the OT Christ as the "Spirit of Christ" - in them. 1Peter 1
11 "seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

No wonder Enoch and Elijah were translated.

the Church was not OT isreal, and you cannot take the law of the old covenant and try to ream it into the New One, for its either all grace or all law...

SDA STILL HOLD TO IT BEING ALL LAW....

1. Your argument is "with the text" as quoted.

2. You have not proven single one of your points,

were you intending to refute Jer 31:31-33 (and Hebrews 8) in your last statement as well?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan;

and that Romans 10 states that "nature itself" brought the gospel to all mankind in both OT (Rom 10) and NT (Rom 2, Rom 1)

none of these verses say this
....could you show it?

And that the Bible teaching of the Gospel for all mankind was given before the cross according to Gal 3:7, John 8:50, Heb 4:1.

none of these verses say this
....could you show it?

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4.

this verse speaks about Israel.not all mankind....

Peter describes the OT Christ as the "Spirit of Christ" - in them. 1Peter 1
11 "seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

this has nothing to do with the topic

No wonder Enoch and Elijah were translated.

.

not relevant.

When Jesus is on the cross declaring...it is finished....How did that DRAW all men everywhere to HIM? as you suggest..

in 33 ad how did it draw a man in central China, a man in south America, a man in Alaska, ...explain it specifically step by step....

How those who have lived and died without even hearing about or knowing Jesus ....how were they drawn to Him??

explain how exactly this happened in the real world.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.

The Bible never claims that to repent, or to confess, or to receive Christ is "salvation by works" --

Rather the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9

it never says "And such would be salvation by works"

The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

=========================

Both Romans 10 and Rev 3 are stated in the form of a "response" to the choice that man makes.

God "Draw all mankind unto Him" John 12:32.

God "convicts the World of sin and righteousness and justice" John 16.

God "knocks on the door" such that if "ANYONE" hears and opens the door - He will come in.

God sends Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1 John 2:2.

Yet stops short of forcing the will - of changing the nature of man prior to the free will choice of man to accept the Gospel.

HE does not "bust down the door and let Himself in"

Yes...you say something that scripture does not:thumbs:

Not at all.....believers...believe:thumbs:

Only to those who cannot grasp it.

That is in your mind...not the bible:thumbs:

It never says it is not either....

You appear to be looking for an answer and not finding one. need help??

I will quote the texts "again" for you -- have a shot at answering the point.

Explain exactly what you think this means....how did this happen in the year 167 ad?
How did God all men on the face of the planet?

Did God also draw those who were in the grave already.....before you and others abuse this text explain it to all of us...:thumbs:

A bit off topic - but will play along for a while.


In the examples below we see the Gospel working even before the cross.

Obviously.

1 Christ in the OT - 1Cor 10:4.

The gospel works in the OT - (See examples like Enoch, Moses, Elijah)

Either you are unware that God is infinite, all knowing , all powerful
or you are unware that John 16 was spoken before the cross,
and that Romans 10 states that "nature itself" brought the gospel to all mankind in both OT (Rom 10) and NT (Rom 2, Rom 1).

And that the Bible teaching of the Gospel for all mankind was given before the cross according to Gal 3:7, John 8:50, Heb 4:1.

"They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4.

Peter describes the OT Christ as the "Spirit of Christ" - in them. 1Peter 1
11 "seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow."

No wonder Enoch and Elijah were translated.
.

this has nothing to do with the topic.

not relevant.

.

That was your agenda remember?

This begins as noted at the top with the "response" to the Gospel drawing and man's choosing to believe, and then to confess - shown in actual scripture to be salvation.

The very sequence that Calvinism denies.

You appear to have capitulated to the point entirely in the NT - and seek only to challenge whether Calvinism also failed in the OT.

Is that even a "solution" for Calvinism?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

God "Draw all mankind unto Him" John 12:32.

here is your text.....

You appear to be looking for an answer and not finding one. need help??

yes I asked you several times now to answer this question

A bit off topic - but will play along for a while.

it is not off topic at all...You use this verse all the time...explain it ....

You quoted jn 12:32.....That after the cross happens...somehow all mankind who has ever existed will be drawn to Jesus.....
I AM ASKING YOU TO EXPLAIN HOW EXACTLY......
let me make it plain....

person #1...is an Eskimo in Alaska hunting whale 's....the year is 398ad..he is harvesting whale blubber on a glacier........

here is the question...as he harvests whale blubber on a glacier.....
how Exactly is he "Drawn to Jesus"

Does he get a burning in his bosom? does he speak in a heavenly language after scripture is complete?

Does an angel visit him?

Do the words just form in his mind, that he is a sinner and Jesus has died a non specific atonement for whosoever will, and then the words somehow
draw him ?




person #2 is harvesting coffee beans in remote portions of south America..

same questions.......
how is he drawn?

In the examples below we see the Gospel working even before the cross

.


these examples have nothing to do with Jn 12 ;32 at all. This is garbage.
the question is not was the gospel in some form offered before the cross.....

the question is....You say ALL Mankind......are drawn. You cannot support this nonsense anywhere from scripture because you are clueless on that verse.

Obviously.

what is quite obvious is that you are posting nonsense...

1 Christ in the OT - 1Cor 10:4.

The question is not about Christ at the Exodus.....is it?

At the time of the Exodus...he was not "lifted up yet ,was he as you suggest jn 12:32 is valid...... At the time of the Exodus...people in china did not know anything about his life or death as he was not here yet.

The Jews had special revelation...ALL mankind did not...your point is unbiblical fantasy.

The gospel works in the OT - (See examples like Enoch, Moses, Elijah)

This has nothing to do with Jn 12:32....All mankind at all...how can you even suggest this as an answer??

That was your agenda remember?

My agenda...is for you to answer to the verses you offered, instead of running away from them....

This begins as noted at the top with the "response" to the Gospel drawing and man's choosing to believe, and then to confess [/QUOTE
You are deluded if you think you have even began to defend this out of context misunderstanding of this verse. It has nothing to do with Calvinism...it has to do with reality....

You appear to have capitulated to the point entirely in the NT - and seek only to challenge whether Calvinism also failed in the OT.

Try and answer these questions here in the real world...not in your fantasy.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10
“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms!

Calvinism is often expressed as an exact negation of scripture.

God sovereignly chose - free will and conditional salvation, conditional forgiveness.

The Bible never claims that to repent, or to confess, or to receive Christ is "salvation by works" --

Rather the Bible says "IF WE Confess our sins HE is faithful and just to Forgive" 1John 1:9

it never says "And such would be salvation by works"

The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

=========================

Both Romans 10 and Rev 3 are stated in the form of a "response" to the choice that man makes.

God "Draw all mankind unto Him" John 12:32.

God "convicts the World of sin and righteousness and justice" John 16.

God "knocks on the door" such that if "ANYONE" hears and opens the door - He will come in.

God sends Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1 John 2:2.

Yet stops short of forcing the will - of changing the nature of man prior to the free will choice of man to accept the Gospel.

HE does not "bust down the door and let Himself in"



...

You appear to have capitulated to the point entirely in the NT - and seek only to challenge whether Calvinism also failed in the OT.

Is that even a "solution" for Calvinism?

You want me to explain why it is that Christ is "telling the truth" in John 12:32 -- specifically with the OT - not the NT (since apparently you believe the texts above destroy Calvinism in the NT).

So then you just don't understand how Christ would have been working in the OT.

here is the question...as he harvests whale blubber on a glacier.....
how Exactly is he "Drawn to Jesus"

Christ said "I will draw ALL to ME" - that includes your eskimo friend.

The Holy Spirit convicts "the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" according to Christ - in John 16 -- that includes your eskimo friend.

Romans 1 says that your eskimo is "without excuse" because the "invisible attributes of God have been CLEARLY seen in the things that have been MADE" and it is so clear that when violating God's Law even the pagans know that they deserve judgment - according to Paul in Romans 1.

And in Romans 2 we have your eskimo friend "doing instinctively the things of the Law SHOWING the work of the Law written on the heart... in the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge" Rom 2:13-16.

Does an angel visit him?

The Holy Spirit "visits him" according to John 16.

IS God the Holy Spirit "insufficient for the task" in your view?

Do the words just form in his mind, that he is a sinner and Jesus has died a non specific atonement for whosoever will

Nope. Read Romans 10 and Romans 1 - Paul argues in both places that nature itself is "sufficient" in combination with God the Holy Spirit - to convict him of sin and draw him to Christ.

But Paul does not go to your extreme of insisting that only with the level of "detail" found in the Bible can the Holy Spirit's work be done.

In any case - nobody here seriously believes that nature and the Holy Spirit do not have access to your eskimo.

And the drawing of God - "enables choice" -- he may not have a full blue print but according to Romans 2 "he does INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law" rather than "by written instruction".

If you read three chapters in Romans starting with Romans 1 and 2, then Romans 10 Paul pretty much spells it out for you.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[PreachTony]

Nope. Read Romans 10 and Romans 1 - Paul argues in both places that nature itself is "sufficient" in combination with God the Holy Spirit - to convict him of sin and draw him to Christ.

But Paul does not go to your extreme of insisting that only with the level of "detail" found in the Bible can the Holy Spirit's work be done.

In any case - nobody here seriously believes that nature and the Holy Spirit do not have access to your eskimo.

And the drawing of God - "enables choice" -- he may not have a full blue print but according to Romans 2 "he does INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law" rather than "by written instruction".

If you read three chapters in Romans starting with Romans 1 and 2, then Romans 10 Paul pretty much spells it out for you.

You alluded to Romans 10. Consider this passage from that chapter:

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

In what way does nature "preach the gospel of peace" in order to convict someone to the point of calling on the name of the Lord? I've spent a lot of time outside, and not once has a walk through the forest impressed upon me the need to repent of my sins. You know what has? The preached word of God.

As for trying to tie Romans 2 into some sort of naturalistic Judeo-Christianity...The verse there dealing with the word "nature" in the KJV reads "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Rom 2:14. This doesn't mean that something in the natural world convinced them of the Law of God. Instead, it means that the Gentiles just naturally did things that were found within the Law. The Gentiles may have recognized that it was wrong to murder. They weren't given the Law of God, but they still held to the commandment, even without knowing it.

If you look in Romans 1 you'll actually see that, for some men, when God revealed himself through nature, making Himself manifest to them, they did not recognize Him as God, but instead glorified themselves instead of God.

 

[BobRyan]

You alluded to Romans 10. Consider this passage from that chapter:


Originally Posted by Romans 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


In what way does nature "preach the gospel of peace" in order to convict someone to the point of calling on the name of the Lord? I've spent a lot of time outside, and not once has a walk through the forest impressed upon me the need to repent of my sins. You know what has? The preached word of God.

As for trying to tie Romans 2 into some sort of naturalistic Judeo-Christianity...The verse there dealing with the word "nature" in the KJV reads "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Rom 2:14. This doesn't mean that something in the natural world convinced them of the Law of God. Instead, it means that the Gentiles just naturally did things that were found within the Law. The Gentiles may have recognized that it was wrong to murder. They weren't given the Law of God, but they still held to the commandment, even without knowing it.

If you look in Romans 1 you'll actually see that, for some men, when God revealed himself through nature, making Himself manifest to them, they did not recognize Him as God, but instead glorified themselves instead of God.

In Romans 1 there is not one single pagan/unbliever excluded from the sweeping statement that 'they are without excuse" because --

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
...28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


And in Romans 10 we have

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”


Paul quotes from the Psalms 19 regarding nature itself -



Ps 19


1The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,



Paul argues for the voice of nature in conjunction with the Gospel even in the OT in Romans 10


18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;


The point is that at the very least this shows God's reach is such that it goes out to the entire world - and all are without excuse - none can say they were not enabled to choose.


John the baptizer can say he died before figuring out all the end-time scenarios you have at your fingertips and many others can say they died without having John's level of the "map book" explained to them. But that does not stop God from enabling their free will.

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan
I want to thank you for trying to respond. many others abuse this text but will not attempt an explanation. let's look-

You want me to explain why it is that Christ is "telling the truth" in John 12:32 -- specifically with the OT - not the NT (since apparently you believe the texts above destroy Calvinism in the NT).

So then you just don't understand how Christ would have been working in the OT.

First let me say that the reason you cannot understand what I am asking you is because you have totally missed the simplicity of the verse.
You are trying to get this verse to say what it cannot and does not say.
Since it cannot mean what you suggest you are scrambling to change the question.

1] No...Christ always tells the truth.No need to explain that. The text simply says that after the cross....the gospel goes worldwide.....it is no longer going to be confined to Jews in Israel.

2] This text destroys nothing related to Calvinism which you keep suggesting , in fact is establishes it as the Covenant described in scripture includes sheep worldwide brought under One Shepherd.
3] I know How Christ was at work in the OT. You suggest this because you have no verses or truth to offer to support your idea...we will see that once again shortly:thumbs: So you hope to go off topic so no one see's your idea is a failed one right from the beginning.

Christ said "I will draw ALL to ME" - that includes your eskimo friend.

The Holy Spirit convicts "the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" according to Christ - in John 16 -- that includes your eskimo friend.

If no one brings the word of God to our eskimo friend...he dies and goes in to second death. PT already responded to you on this.

Romans 1 says that your eskimo is "without excuse" because the "invisible attributes of God have been CLEARLY seen in the things that have been MADE" and it is so clear that when violating God's Law even the pagans know that they deserve judgment - according to Paul in Romans 1.

Romans 1 leaves him responsible and condemned....Jn 12 has no effect on him, as the gospel did not get there...he is awaiting the second death at the whitethrone judgement.

And in Romans 2 we have your eskimo friend "doing instinctively the things of the Law SHOWING the work of the Law written on the heart... in the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge" Rom 2:13-16.

Romans 2 leaves him condemned...as his conscience allows him to do some of the works of the law, but the works of the law cannot save him...he is still guilty and condemned....Jn 12 still does not help him as he died before jn 12 was announced:thumbs:

The light of nature, rom 1 psalm 19 allow pagans to know there is a God, but it does not save them. The light of conscience does not save them..
All mankind does not get special revelation...not every single person that ever lived.

The Holy Spirit "visits him" according to John 16.

you are randomly abusing every text you look at.JN 16 does not teach that our eskimo friend gets a visit by the Holy Spirit. The promises of Jn 14-17 have to do with the Apostles receiving special revelation, all truth

It is the preaching of the all truth given to the Apostles, by them and their followers...ie, the church that is accompanied by the Spirit who then does this;
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

How do we know this? Jesus told them;

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

IS God the Holy Spirit "insufficient for the task" in your view?

This kind of remark you are using because you have no where to go,and you interact with DHK alot,who does this also. Do not hurt yourself trying to put words or thoughts in my mouth. I will answer for myself...thank you very much:thumbs:

Nope. Read Romans 10 and Romans 1 - Paul argues in both places that nature itself is "sufficient" in combination with God the Holy Spirit - to convict him of sin and draw him to Christ.

Wrong...you yourself said it leaves them without excuse...No responsible commentator suggests that romans 1 or two leads anyone to salvation without special revelation...not one.

But Paul does not go to your extreme of insisting that only with the level of "detail" found in the Bible can the Holy Spirit's work be done.

You know as well as i do that no where in the bible is there a hint of anyone being drawn savingly at random who never has heard about Jesus, the cross, and the blood. It is not extreme on my part. I just do not try and get the one text to be a magical catch all for a pollyanna presentation that you and others suggest, but can not explain in any coherent detail.

I give you credit for attempting to defend the indefensible, but I would give you more credit to see your error and look for truth:thumbs:

In any case - nobody here seriously believes that nature and the Holy Spirit do not have access to your eskimo.

An answer from silence is no answer at all. nature does not save...Pt offered you from rom 10 how can they hear unless they be sent?

And the drawing of God - "enables choice" -- he may not have a full blue print but according to Romans 2 "he does INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law" rather than "by written instruction".

Romans 2 is miles away from Jn 12...romams 2 is being used to shame the Jews who had the oracles of God and failed big time...the heathen who did not have it, did by nature many of the things in it. That is what rom 2 is about...not you false linking to jn12.

If you read three chapters in Romans starting with Romans 1 and 2, then Romans 10 Paul pretty much spells it out for you.

Friend...what those 3 chapters in romans teach is all men everywhere are guilty and condemned ,and without exciuse before a thrice Holy God...

It is the predestined elect of romans 8:29-32 who make the trip to Heaven.

You have time to get it correct and repent of the false teaching of that group you are in...