A Question for Calvinust here (Part 2)

[steaver]

Greetings All,

Since the first thread on this important issue was hijacked by a Spurgeon debate and then closed, I am beginning a Part 2 in hopes to find what is the "True Calvinism". There appears to be a split in the Calvin camp on a very core issue which was raised by brother Icon...even though claims that the camp is in agreement with him.

Let's refresh our memories on the claims brother Icon made concerning why many do not embrace Calvinism/TULIP.

I will give the exact quotes, so we can be perfectly clear what the subject raised was, and how that subject was answered. Attempts have been made to do rewrites and then give long pointless answers in order to cloud the OP and cause confusion upon the readers. This is not helpful in seeking the truth of this important subject, and I am not sure why some feel a need to distort the issue. If you believe something, don't be afraid to be clear and defend it. No need to attempt to wiggle out of statements made.

Post 2 pending........

 

[steaver]

Brother Icon declares that one cannot become a Calvinist unless God allows them to believe the doctrine.....

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
DHK asked in one of these threads...what do you want me to do...BECOME A CALVINIST???? even this betrays a view that is not clear on how truth is opened up to someone.
A person does not become a Calvinist, and more than a person one day just becomes a Christian. It takes a work of Divine enablement.

Steaver reply.....Oh good grief! Do all Calvinist believe as you do Icon? That we are all just puppets waiting for the Great Puppet Master to zap us into Christians and Calvinist? You are way off the deep end, I believe your fellow brothers and sisters in Calvinism would also agree that you have actually left Calvinism with your "Divine Enablement" doctrine.

Icon reply....I am one person Steaver. I do not speak for any group. My views are within the camp however.
.......

........okay....and I believe you have need to learn the biblical ...a,b c's to raise this issue...

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Can you see it now Steaver????...guess what salvation is also ...GIVEN...by Divine enablement...they go hand in hand....

....he bases this belief on Matt 13. You can see his argument here....... http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...57#post2173157



My question is, is this what all Calvinist believe? Please answer pertaining directly to the OP, in other words, please do not tweek or rewrite the OP and then answer something different.

Brother Icon says his position is within the camp of Calvinism.

 

[steaver]

Now in the original Thread on this subject, we had one Calvinist speak up in agreement with brother Icon, in fact, he declared brother Icon always correct....

"Brother Iconoclast needs no backing...his accurate articulation of the scriptures is all he ever needs..." (Willis).

And we had one Calvinist speak up and disagree.....

"Icon is sharing his understanding which, IMO, is flawed for a number of reasons.....and.....Some, I'm sure, do agree with him. I'm one who does not." (Archangel)

Now it appears the "camp" does not really want to get involved with this seeing how little a response has been forthcoming from them. So let's continue with what we have thus far...

Before the thread was digressed into a Spurgeon debate, we had this comment....

"As to the OP. I am a relatively recent comer to the reformed corner, only in the last 2 years or so. I do not know if I fully agree with Icon's interpretation of illumination regarding the doctrines of grace, though I think it would be logical. If, as according to scripture, we require God to enlighten our minds and open our hearts to receive the gospel because of our fallenness, then it would seem to follow that any correct theology would require similar illumination." (RLBosley)

Doesn't RLB have a good point here? If we follow Calvinism/TULIP to it's logical conclusions, then Icon would have to be correct in his declarations that unless a person believes Calvinism/TULIP to be correct, Matt 13 and John 10 applies to that person.....which makes them unsaved. Could AA be wrong here and Icon be right? And, would that make AA unsaved for not seeing Matt 13 and John 10 applied as Icon does? Seeing how the Holy Spirit did not teach AA to apply these scriptures as Icon has? Which one is the "True Calvinism"?

 

[The Archangel]

Now in the original Thread on this subject, we had one Calvinist speak up in agreement with brother Icon, in fact, he declared brother Icon always correct....



And we had one Calvinist speak up and disagree.....



Now it appears the "camp" does not really want to get involved with this seeing how little a response has been forthcoming from them. So let's continue with what we have thus far...

Before the thread was digressed into a Spurgeon debate, we had this comment....



Doesn't RLB have a good point here? If we follow Calvinism/TULIP to it's logical conclusions, then Icon would have to be correct in his declarations that unless a person believes Calvinism/TULIP to be correct, Matt 13 and John 10 applies to that person.....which makes them unsaved. Could AA be wrong here and Icon be right? And, would that make AA unsaved for not seeing Matt 13 and John 10 applied as Icon does? Seeing how the Holy Spirit did not teach AA to apply these scriptures as Icon has? Which one is the "True Calvinism"?

You are taking my comments out of their immediate context.

My intent in saying what I said about Icon's statements was to point out that Icon had missed the point of the passage he was citing. Secondarily, I was saying I didn't agree with his statement. Why? I do not believe one needs to be a Calvinist to be an orthodox or "good" Christian. I know and admire many non-Calvinists who are fantastically committed to Christ.

To be sure, there are some expressions of Calvinism and Arminianism that are far outside orthodoxy. And there is a range of understanding within each system.

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

Steaver, Iconoclast and I are taking up waaaaaaay tooooooooo much of your time....

Please go and get yourself a hobby.....

I never said Icon was always right...but he's right a LOT more than you are....:thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

You are taking my comments out of their immediate context.

My intent in saying what I said about Icon's statements was to point out that Icon had missed the point of the passage he was citing. Secondarily, I was saying I didn't agree with his statement. Why? I do not believe one needs to be a Calvinist to be an orthodox or "good" Christian. I know and admire many non-Calvinists who are fantastically committed to Christ.

To be sure, there are some expressions of Calvinism and Arminianism that are far outside orthodoxy. And there is a range of understanding within each system.

The Archangel

Puzzling?? You say I take your comments out of context and then say you don't agree with Icon's statement?? Are you back peddling? That's ok if you misspoke, just say so....

 

[steaver]

Steaver, Iconoclast and I are taking up waaaaaaay tooooooooo much of your time....

Please go and get yourself a hobby.....

I never said Icon was always right...but he's right a LOT more than you are....:thumbsup:

"Brother Iconoclast needs no backing...his accurate articulation of the scriptures is all he ever needs..." (Willis).

Can you give an example of something he posted where you think he was wrong about the scripture?

 

[The Archangel]

Puzzling?? You say I take your comments out of context and then say you don't agree with Icon's statement?? Are you back peddling? That's ok if you misspoke, just say so....

No... I'm not back peddling. I think Icon has misunderstood the hermeneutical limits of the application of that specific text.

Since I don't think he applies that passage correctly, I don't think the conclusion he comes to is proper.

On the whole (completely divorced from Icon's comments and the--now--two threads about them) I think God does lead us into deeper understanding and I think that's part of the nature of sanctification. Again, as I've said before, I think sanctification is a synergistic thing--God works in us and we work, too.

We do progress in our sanctification at varying rates and arrive (at least in this life) at different points and conclusions. I do think it too far of an over statement to say that only Calvinists are properly sanctified, etc.

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

No... I'm not back peddling. I think Icon has misunderstood the hermeneutical limits of the application of that specific text.

Since I don't think he applies that passage correctly, I don't think the conclusion he comes to is proper.

On the whole (completely divorced from Icon's comments and the--now--two threads about them) I think God does lead us into deeper understanding and I think that's part of the nature of sanctification. Again, as I've said before, I think sanctification is a synergistic thing--God works in us and we work, too.

We do progress in our sanctification at varying rates and arrive (at least in this life) at different points and conclusions. I do think it too far of an over statement to say that only Calvinists are properly sanctified, etc.

The Archangel

Good post. :thumbsup:If we are wrong on any passage and push it to far, making the passage go beyond what is intended.....it will be a mistaken conclusion.

 

[Iconoclast]

Puzzling?? You say I take your comments out of context and then say you don't agree with Icon's statement?? Are you back peddling? That's ok if you misspoke, just say so....

It is not puzzling Steaver.....He is answering you honestly. The thing is....he makes a distinction between his biblical understanding and your agenda driven witchunt.:thumbsup:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast
DHK asked in one of these threads...what do you want me to do...BECOME A CALVINIST???? even this betrays a view that is not clear on how truth is opened up to someone.
A person does not become a Calvinist, and more than a person one day just becomes a Christian. It takes a work of Divine enablement.

The person that posts such a view - must logically conclude that no Arminian here is exposing the flaws in Calvinism simply because they 'choose to do so' but rather God is causing that born again saved Arminian to expose each flaw in Calvinism as it is exposed in scripture to be flawed.

Certainly I as an Arminian would agree that God is directing the Arminian in that effort - and so to at least some extent - I would agree with such a Calvinist.

What I don't understand - is why such a Calvinist would of their own free will debate such an Arminian when they and I both know that they are debating against the will of God in such a case, since we both agree that God has actually ordained that the Arminian should expose the flaws in Calvinism just as they are doing and the Calvinist goes even farther by insisting that the Arminian has no other choice but to do so.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

The person that posts such a view - must logically conclude that no Arminian here is exposing the flaws in Calvinism simply because they 'choose to do so' but rather God is causing that born again saved Arminian to expose each flaw in Calvinism as it is exposed in scripture to be flawed.

Certainly I as an Arminian would agree that God is directing the Arminian in that effort - and so to at least some extent - I would agree with such a Calvinist.

What I don't understand - is why such a Calvinist would of their own free will debate such an Arminian when they and I both know that they are debating against the will of God in such a case, since we both agree that God has actually ordained that the Arminian should expose the flaws in Calvinism just as they are doing and the Calvinist goes even farther by insisting that the Arminian has no other choice but to do so.

in Christ,

Bob

This is the baptist section of the board...you are sda correct?

 

[Iconoclast]

The person that posts such a view - must logically conclude

Any such person does not have to conclude....what you speculate.
Any such person is able to state their own point of view.
If you are allowed to post in a baptist only section, then post your own ideas....not your speculations



:wavey:

 

[Tom Butler]

Here are some scripture verses to ponder:

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

There are several more passages I could cite, but these should suffice.

Anybody want to exegete them?

 

[convicted1]

Here are some scripture verses to ponder:

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

There are several more passages I could cite, but these should suffice.

Anybody want to exegete them?

How dare you!! What nerve! Why of all the things....

...don't bring the scriptures into this thread and derail it...SHEESH!!

:wavey: :saint:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Long about the time poor ole Tom B has to intercede in a post.....then I know without reading it that it has gone south......I mean Florida Keys.:laugh:

 

[steaver]

No... I'm not back peddling. I think Icon has misunderstood the hermeneutical limits of the application of that specific text.

Since I don't think he applies that passage correctly, I don't think the conclusion he comes to is proper.

The Archangel

Oooooooooookay......then why did you say I was taking your comments out of the immediate context??? You disagree with Icon's application of scripture presented in the OP. That's all I said you disagreed with.

On the whole (completely divorced from Icon's comments and the--now--two threads about them) I think God does lead us into deeper understanding and I think that's part of the nature of sanctification. Again, as I've said before, I think sanctification is a synergistic thing--God works in us and we work, too.

We do progress in our sanctification at varying rates and arrive (at least in this life) at different points and conclusions. I do think it too far of an over statement to say that only Calvinists are properly sanctified, etc.

Yes, and you see a person can be a Christian and also not believe in Calvinism/TULIP. Icon believes the opposite, hence he would not have answered DHK and myself with Matt 13 and John 10.

Now, what I want to know is why Icon considers you saved when you have not been shown by the Holy Spirit the same interpretations and applications of Matt 13 and John 10 that have been taught to him by the Holy Spirit?? That is, no Calvinism/TULIP means no sheep!

 

[steaver]

This is the baptist section of the board...you are sda correct?

Brother, we are in the (all Christians) debate section. But of course you believe only Calvinist are the sheep, according to your post in the OP.

 

[steaver]

Good post. :thumbsup:If we are wrong on any passage and push it to far, making the passage go beyond what is intended.....it will be a mistaken conclusion.

:laugh: It is you who declares there is no such thing as a true Christian being wrong about Calvinism/TULIP. You cite Matt 13 and John 10 as your proof text! Are you telling the board now that you could be wrong in your OP remarks? Maybe you don't understand Matt 13 and John 10 correctly? And how to apply them correctly to circumstances?

 

[steaver]

How dare you!! What nerve! Why of all the things....

...don't bring the scriptures into this thread and derail it...SHEESH!!

:wavey: :saint:

Willis, why don't you add your views of the OP about Matt 13 and John 10, and how they apply to persons who claim to be Christian but do not believe in Calvinism/TULIP, instead of just making silly remarks? Speak up and be heard! Tell us how you agree with brother Icon, that he is absolutely correct in the OP, that one cannot believe in Calvinism unless the Holy Spirit teaches them, and if they will not believe it is because of Matt 13.......tell us Willis....