A Question for Calvinust here (Part 2)

[steaver]

On the whole (completely divorced from Icon's comments and the--now--two threads about them) ........

The Archangel

Actually brother, I had to start another thread because the first one was hijacked by about 13 pages on Spurgeon and then closed. This is a very important issue, it just so happens Icon's comments have brought it to the forefront. I happen to believe Icon is just stating the logical conclusion that must be made concerning Calvinism's version of DoG, he is not afraid to take it to it's logical end, that is, as he presented, no one can be a Calvinist unless they are born of God, these are the born of God passages he presented, Matt 13 and John 10. In his declarations, one does not become a Calvinist because one is not of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother, we are in the (all Christians) debate section. But of course you believe only Calvinist are the sheep, according to your post in the OP.

Other christian denominations is for non baptists from what I understand.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

It is you who declares there is no such thing as a true Christian being wrong

Hey Steaver...where did I declare this steaver.....??? I do not mind discussing any topic and I will stand by my posts. The thing is I will stand by what I post as I said it. Not as you want to edit it...let me clarify for you.
You cannot accept an honest interaction can you?
You have to change what I said and make it where you can answer it.
You cannot answer scripturally to the doctrine so you must somehow change my wording and intent.
Let me break it down even with more clarity for you since you cannot think it out for yourself without mangling it:laugh:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice,

and I know them,

and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The doctrines of grace are taught all through scripture. Once that is understood a conversation can begin
Jesus has been discussing all such doctrines in the gospel of John.

He did not use the theological language we use today...is that okay with you Steaver? or do we need to re-write church history for you?

In verse 25 Jesus said;I told you, and ye believed not:

What did he tell them ? He has been discussing the Good Shepherd and the sheep...I believe it is directly related to EZK 34 where 17x God says how he is going to seek and save HIS SHEEP.....I believe that deals with election Steaver...even though the word election itself isnotfound in EZK 34, or Jn 10

are you okay with that? the reason is..if we are told in other places that teaching is true from eternity past...would it not be true here as a backdrop? Does the truth of that teaching somehow get suspended and not be consistent throughout scripture?

then we have vs 26..where we are told why even though He told them of His being sent by the father as the Good Shepherd to accomplish redemption for those given to him...I lay down my life ..for the sheep... Jesus gives the reason they are unable...and unwilling to believe----

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep...

The reason they do not believe is they are still dead in Adam.The are unable and unwilling. They are religious but not elect sheep.Until and unless God Divinely enables a person...this is their condition.

This section addresses that one concern in particular.If it is true of these men...it is true of others also.

Any problem so far?

about Calvinism/TULIP. You cite Matt 13 and John 10 as your proof text! Are you telling the board now that you could be wrong in your OP remarks?

No ,,,not at all....I am trying to clarify for you.

 

[convicted1]

Willis, why don't you add your views of the OP about Matt 13 and John 10, and how they apply to persons who claim to be Christian but do not believe in Calvinism/TULIP, instead of just making silly remarks? Speak up and be heard! Tell us how you agree with brother Icon, that he is absolutely correct in the OP, that one cannot believe in Calvinism unless the Holy Spirit teaches them, and if they will not believe it is because of Matt 13.......tell us Willis....

Brothers AA and Iconoclast are articulating my beliefs quite well, thank you. :thumbsup:

You'll just dismiss my posts/verses and sweep them under a rug...

You REALLY need a hobby and quit worrying about Brother Iconoclast and I...:thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

Other christian denominations is for non baptists from what I understand.:wavey:

This is for all christians and not just baptists, Brother Iconoclast...

 

[steaver]

steaver


Hey Steaver...where did I declare this steaver.....??? I do not mind discussing any topic and I will stand by my posts. The thing is I will stand by what I post as I said it. Not as you want to edit it...let me clarify for you.
You cannot accept an honest interaction can you?
You have to change what I said and make it where you can answer it.
You cannot answer scripturally to the doctrine so you must somehow change my wording and intent.
Let me break it down even with more clarity for you since you cannot think it out for yourself without mangling it:laugh:

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice,

and I know them,

and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The doctrines of grace are taught all through scripture. Once that is understood a conversation can begin
Jesus has been discussing all such doctrines in the gospel of John.

He did not use the theological language we use today...is that okay with you Steaver? or do we need to re-write church history for you?

In verse 25 Jesus said;I told you, and ye believed not:

What did he tell them ? He has been discussing the Good Shepherd and the sheep...I believe it is directly related to EZK 34 where 17x God says how he is going to seek and save HIS SHEEP.....I believe that deals with election Steaver...even though the word election itself isnotfound in EZK 34, or Jn 10

are you okay with that? the reason is..if we are told in other places that teaching is true from eternity past...would it not be true here as a backdrop? Does the truth of that teaching somehow get suspended and not be consistent throughout scripture?

then we have vs 26..where we are told why even though He told them of His being sent by the father as the Good Shepherd to accomplish redemption for those given to him...I lay down my life ..for the sheep... Jesus gives the reason they are unable...and unwilling to believe----

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep...

The reason they do not believe is they are still dead in Adam.The are unable and unwilling. They are religious but not elect sheep.Until and unless God Divinely enables a person...this is their condition.

This section addresses that one concern in particular.If it is true of these men...it is true of others also.

Any problem so far?


No ,,,not at all....I am trying to clarify for you.

I'm not sure why you are trying to convince me you are correct, I said I believe your position according to the logical conclusions found in Calvinism's DoG would be the correct one.

You pointed to John 10 when I made the comment as to why all Christians do not embrace TULIP. And you "clarify" it here for us......

The reason they do not believe is they are still dead in Adam. The are unable and unwilling. They are religious but not elect sheep. Until and unless God Divinely enables a person...this is their condition.

 

[webdog]

Here are some scripture verses to ponder:

Acts 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

There are several more passages I could cite, but these should suffice.

Anybody want to exegete them?

How about you exegete them? We all can post single verses out of context. Its called prooftexting.

 

[convicted1]

How about you exegete them? We all can post single verses out of context. Its called prooftexting.

Hey Brother, welcome back. I was wondering/worrying about you not being on here for a while. :wavey:

How was your CHRISTmas? I pray it was blessed. I love you....

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

I'm not sure why you are trying to convince me you are correct,

I am not trying to convince you necessarily Steaver as I do not think you want truth. You are just looking to oppose and contend.

You have taken one or two statements I made and then added your own speculation to it. What you are looking for now is to try and line up people...perhaps cals...who would question me, or disagree would be better Correct?

I am right here not going anywhere. I will back up my posting, interact and correct if I drift off track.

You do not agree with what you thought I meant when I posted. I am willing to expand on what I said and supply the theological dots that you are lacking so you can see for yourself.
I am correct with what i am saying if understood properly...not if twisted by you or others.

Because I do not like how the words are twisted...I will slow down and take one section at a time....like here...the link between ezk 34...and Jn 10.

I do not think you can try and explain it away...in fact,,,you have not offered any comment on it...by yourself ...why is that?:wavey:

I said I believe your position according to the logical conclusions found in Calvinism's DoG would be the correct one.

I think this response is inadequate because you seek to divide what Calvinism says...from biblical truth Steaver. I clearly believe Calvinism equals the BIBLICAL position. When all the verses are looked at and a summary statement is made......calvinism is what you get.

It does not really have to do with Calvin himself, or what he said, or thought.
Calvin looked at His bible in his day, millions have looked at their bibles since.

I did not invent the terms, they existed before I did. I do not avoid the terms at all. For example ...some like OR..avoid the "terms" and yet i agree with most everything he posts..
He does not care for Calvin and some of what he taught...others enjoy some of what he taught. there is no rule on this..each person will give account of himself to God.

You pointed to John 10 when I made the comment as to why all Christians do not embrace TULIP. And you "clarify" it here for us....

..

You are trying to button hole me to find one verse or text when in reality it is a combination of texts....The gospel of John has many verses that fit in....
speaking of the DoG as it relates to Israel and then the whole world.

Notice..in jn 10...the reason given by jesus why they could not believe is that They were not his sheep.....you believe not BECAUSE....My sheep hear my voice.. the sheep are enabled By God...1 cor 2 explains the reason why we are enabled...By the Spirit.

That is how a person gets saved. That is how a person welcomes truth.
people are at different levels of growth and maturity.... the truth is the DoG...the truth is not multiple choice at all.
Every believer is a cal. Some have not grown or matured.like baby birds in the nest who have not grown feathers yet or experienced flight yet.

But even new believers when they pray...pray as cals...

at prayer meeting...do you pray to mans "free will" to save himself, or do you ask God if it be His will to draw uncle john to salvation by the Spirit?

do you ask...Lord let him make a good choice today...even though you believe God does not do anything to him to indeed make him a new creation?

Also... those who try and say...I am a non cal...if the truth be known...they believe identical to cals on many sections of scripture, but if they admit that...it would weaken their opposition, so they remain silent.
My second section would be 1 cor 2... the whole chapter speaking of individual persons...no Spirit no new birth, no biblical comprehension. we will look at it... then mt 13

 

[Iconoclast]

How about you exegete them? We all can post single verses out of context. Its called prooftexting.

yes...however a proof text is not meant to do all the work...the person offers the text as an address for where to look and meditate on. some post quickly on phones...some offer no text at all at any time. A proof text is better than no text:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, a

2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spirit

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Every section speaks of natural men unable to welcome the word, or the word not given to them ...

 

[webdog]

Hey Brother, welcome back. I was wondering/worrying about you not being on here for a while. :wavey:

How was your CHRISTmas? I pray it was blessed. I love you....

It was great...still recovering. The house looks like Santa's elves bombed us with toy grenades.

 

[convicted1]

It was great...still recovering. The house looks like Santa's elves bombed us with toy grenades.

Toy grenades? Hilarious. Glad to hear that. But what better way to spend that $$$? We can't have any kids, so we spoil our pug with toys.

 

[steaver]

steaver

You have taken one or two statements I made and then added your own speculation to it.

And what speculation would you be referring to? I made a comment about why everyone doesn't embrace TULIP and your answer was crystal clear....you cited John 10. You even made sure you bolded the Not My sheep part. Now what am I speculating about?

 

[Iconoclast]

And what speculation would you be referring to? I made a comment about why everyone doesn't embrace TULIP and your answer was crystal clear....you cited John 10. You even made sure you bolded the Not My sheep part. Now what am I speculating about?

You quoted my posts but have not responded to the content of the posts. 23, 29, and my previous post here on page four. Do you agree or not? if not why not? I gave short clarifying statements...I asked some questions. Unless you comment it is hard to really communicate. Answer the questions and also say where what I posted about ezk34 is not on track.

 

[steaver]

You quoted my posts but have not responded to the content of the posts. 23, 29, and my previous post here on page four. Do you agree or not? if not why not? I gave short clarifying statements...I asked some questions. Unless you comment it is hard to really communicate. Answer the questions and also say where what I posted about ezk34 is not on track.

Are you attempting to school me from the Scriptures that your declarations about those who do not believe in Calvinism/TULIP are not saved??

Because that is the issue and it is the OP topic. And it is what you believe and it is what you clearly stated when you answered me with John 10. Shall I bring forth again my comments and your answers to those comments for a refresher??

I guess I'm just not understanding what your point is by wanting to go through the bible on this subject. I believe you highly regard AA's comments and you haven't convinced him. He says your wrong and he is in your camp!!

Tell you what, you start a thread to debate within your own camp why those who do not believe in Calvinism/TULIP are not sheep, and I will listen in to see how it goes. Maybe if you can convince AA, then maybe I will give you a hearing. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

Are you attempting to school me from the Scriptures that your declarations about those who do not believe in Calvinism/TULIP are not saved??

Post where I said that and if you cannot...repent of violating the 9th commandment.

Because that is the issue and it is the OP topic

.

You issue is false from the start

And it is what you believe and it is what you clearly stated

You like DHK have gone to lying because when you cannot answer you must change the playing field.
No it is not what i clearly stated. although when an unsaved person tries to believe it..he cannot like those in John 10.

when you answered me with John 10. Shall I bring forth again my comments and your answers to those comments for a refresher??

unless you answer my last three posts...it is clear it is you who avoid truth here.

I guess I'm just not understanding what your point is by wanting to go through the bible on this subject. [/QUOTE

The point is...we have different conclusions ...I want to see where you think i am not accurate on these 4 - 5 sections of scripture that I believe will make my case. I know you cannot speak to it...or you would have already...what did i post wrong ...show it if you can. If not it shows to me what i suspect.

I believe you highly regard AA's comments and you haven't convinced him. He says your wrong and he is in your camp!!

I do not believe your twist of what AA has said. I will not engage you if you only desire to be contentious and a troublemaker.

Tell you what, you start a thread to debate within your own camp why those who do not believe in Calvinism/TULIP are not sheep, and I will listen in to see how it goes. Maybe if you can convince AA, then maybe I will give you a hearing.

Like I thought...you are not looking for a real answer at all. There are many reasons someone does not understand the DoG.
That discussion belongs to someone who is serious about an answer...
looks like it is not you.:laugh:

 

[steaver]

steaver


Post where I said that and if you cannot...repent of violating the 9th commandment.
.

You issue is false from the start


You like DHK have gone to lying because when you cannot answer you must change the playing field.
No it is not what i clearly stated. although when an unsaved person tries to believe it..he cannot like those in John 10.

Oh my goodness! :laugh: You seriously believe that anyone reading your post in the OP doesn't see you said aything less than 'no Calvinism/TULIP equals no sheep'?!?! What do you think it is AA is disagreeing with??

Ok, I don't have time to repost your remarks right now, I'll be back tomorrow......I will gladly bring them to the forefront....again.

 

[steaver]

In the mean time, I will give a shout out to all who have read your OP comments and ask them to respond to your posting, including your fellow Calvinist, if they see anything other than "no Calvinism/TULIP equals no sheep' via your proof text of Matt 13 and John 10 which you referenced as your backing for your pov.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...we'll see if anyone sees anything different than what I have seen. Would be interesting to see some other issue being addressed.....but we'll see if anyone sees anything.......

 

[Iconoclast]

Oh my goodness! :laugh: You seriously believe that anyone reading your post in the OP doesn't see you said aything less than 'no Calvinism/TULIP equals no sheep'?!?! What do you think it is AA is disagreeing with??

Ok, I don't have time to repost your remarks right now, I'll be back tomorrow......I will gladly bring them to the forefront....again.

Hey steaver ...if you are not going to respond to the posts...don't bother.

You can remain and post in ignorance and do your grandstanding:laugh::laugh:

if you cannot be honest why should I waste time with you? You now have been asked 5 x to respond. You cannot... so now you want to retreat to your twisting of words...