A question for Cavinist

[canadyjd]

If that is your best argument for the DoG it is no wonder that people reject it…

Astonishingly, you keep making that same argument after it has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions that Romans 9:19-20 does not help your argument.

Again, I am astonished that someone who seeks to teach others the meaning of scripture simply ignores a passage that directly answers their arguments.

Thanks for the conversation, I see no edification in engaging you further in this topic

peace to you

 

[37818]

I quoted the statement above that is a mischaracterization of what “Calvinist” believe.

It was, in essence, that Calvinist believe God is forbidding people who desire to come to Him in faith to do so.

That is simply untrue.

No one “desires” to come to God in faith unless God first intervenes in their lives.

Hope that clears it up.

peace to you

No Scriptures? John 6:45.

 

[canadyjd]

No Scriptures? John 6:45.

There is no scripture to support the mischaracterization of what “Calvinist” believe.

John 6:45 is a wonderful passage. When you reconcile it with Matthew 11:27, you get a much clearer understanding of the truth of God’s revelation of Himself.

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

But the question is "why does a believer in election, predestination, calvinism, reformed theology, or whatever other term one wants to use, speak out regarding false teaching?"

" Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." ( Jude 1:3 )

 

[Silverhair]

Again, I am astonished that someone who seeks to teach others the meaning of scripture simply ignores a passage that directly answers their arguments.

Thanks for the conversation, I see no edification in engaging you further in this topic

peace to you

In your mind it answers but in reality it does not. Your response does not even come close to addressing.
Do you deny that this is Calvinism

What is misunderstood about the DoG

Under Calvinism
God unconditionally chooses to only save some, but not all,
God limits the atonement of Christs’ death to that select few and
God gives irresistible grace to those that are the fortunate elect.
If you do not meet any of these conditions then you are doomed from the start.
Calvinism says this brings glory to God. How? Does this show justice? NO.
What is shows is just the opposite of what that bible tells us about God and His stated desire for humanity.

This is the bible
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The DoG is the opposite of what God desires and what the bible teaches. That is not dis agreeing or answering back to God it is pointing out the error of your Calvinism. You have closed your mind to the truth of scripture. But as I have shown before when the root of Calvinism is bad so is the tree.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Does it show justice that God elects a remnant from humanity? No it shows mercy. If you want justice everyone would be sent to eternal perdition.
Regarding 1 Tim. 2:4, it is speaking of all kinds of people --not only Jews.
Regarding 1 John 2:2, John is referencing people from among all tribes, languages, peoples and nations. See what he wrote in Rev. 5:9.

 

[canadyjd]

In your mind it answers but in reality it does not. Your response does not even come close to addressing.
Do you deny that this is Calvinism

What is misunderstood about the DoG

Under Calvinism
God unconditionally chooses to only save some, but not all,
God limits the atonement of Christs’ death to that select few and
God gives irresistible grace to those that are the fortunate elect.
If you do not meet any of these conditions then you are doomed from the start.
Calvinism says this brings glory to God. How? Does this show justice? NO.
What is shows is just the opposite of what that bible tells us about God and His stated desire for humanity.

This is the bible
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The DoG is the opposite of what God desires and what the bible teaches. That is not dis agreeing or answering back to God it is pointing out the error of your Calvinism. You have closed your mind to the truth of scripture. But as I have shown before when the root of Calvinism is bad so is the tree.

Romans 9:19-20 is Paul’s response, not mine, to someone who questions why God finds fault with those not chosen to be a vessel that receives mercy. He ask them who are they to talk back to God.

That directly addresses your statement that people not chosen for salvation have an excuse for sin. That is the teaching of scripture. I understand you don’t like it, but it is the teaching of God’s Word.

I know in your mind any passage that supports the doctrines of grace doesn’t apply. They cannot be reconciled with your beliefs,

Personally, I don’t bring pre-conceived beliefs to my study of scripture. I just seek to understand God’s Word in context. I can always be convinced I’m wrong based on scripture in context.

Just saying “that passage don’t apply” really doesn’t convince me of anything other than some aren’t interested in understanding scripture in context.

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 9:19-20 is Paul’s response, not mine, to someone who questions why God finds fault with those not chosen to be a vessel that receives mercy. He ask them who are they to talk back to God.

That directly addresses your statement that people not chosen for salvation have an excuse for sin. That is the teaching of scripture. I understand you don’t like it, but it is the teaching of God’s Word.

I know in your mind any passage that supports the doctrines of grace doesn’t apply. They cannot be reconciled with your beliefs,

Personally, I don’t bring pre-conceived beliefs to my study of scripture. I just seek to understand God’s Word in context. I can always be convinced I’m wrong based on scripture in context.

Just saying “that passage don’t apply” really doesn’t convince me of anything other than some aren’t interested in understanding scripture in context.

peace to you

That is the problem, you actually do not take those verses in context do you. But that is your option.

 

[David Kent]

@ Siverhair I’m willing to compromise about many things, but not the Word of God

Except when it clashes with your views.

 

[David Kent]

John 6:45,46 Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

It seems the teaching was no more popular in those days than it is now.

 

[canadyjd]

That is the problem, you actually do not take those verses in context do you. But that is your option.

I explained the context of Roman 9:19-20. It is easy to understand unless someone brings preconceived beliefs and an obsessive hatred of the doctrines of grace to the text instead of a willingness to believe God’s Word.

peace to you

 

[Van]

The thread opening post question, rephrased based on my understanding is:
Why all the indignation concerning non-Calvinist views, if those saved will not be affected? Why rail against supposed false teachers if false teaching does not matter at all?

If you flip the question, why not be tolerant of false teachers because they will not impact the salvation of anyone, you run up against the command to not be tolerant of false teachers.

So once again, we have God commanding believers to act in futile ways, preaching to the lost who are unable to understand the gospel, and being intolerant of false teachers who are unable to affect anyone's salvation.

On the other hand, we could believe Romans 2:5-8, which indicates the lost actually impact in some way with their deeds, the outcome of their lives.

 

[Silverhair]

@ Siverhair I’m willing to compromise about many things, but not the Word of God

Except when it clashes with your views.

My views come from the whole word of God not from a man-made theology. I do not pick the verses I like and discard those that I do not like as some are want to do on this board.

You said in post # 67 "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repent and turn to Christ" but if as has been said "Calvinism is the gospel" why do you not preach the truth of Calvinism? Why would you preach something that you say they cannot possibly do. To believe or repent requires a free will and Calvinism says man has no free will.

So what I clash with is Calvinism and the errant views that it presents.

 

[DaveXR650]

God gives irresistible grace to those that are the fortunate elect.

Here's John Owen, the Calvinist: "But indeed Christ has no such power, no such ability; he cannot save unbelieving, impenitent sinners; for this cannot be done without denying himself, acting contrary to his word, and destroying his own glory... Christ is able to save all them, and only them, who come to God by him. Whilst you live in sin and unbelief, Christ himself cannot save you".
Owens Works Meditations and Discourses concerning the Glory of Christ (Location 10334 Kindle version).
If you mean irresistible grace like that then obviously you are misunderstanding something, or Owen is not a Calvinist.

God limits the atonement of Christs’ death to that select few and

Now let's look at who these folks are that are excluded from the atonement. Once again I'll use Owen, just a couple of paragraphs later than the above quote: "There is therefore no man who under gospel invitations, refuseth to come unto and close with Christ by believing, but secretly, through the power of darkness, blindness, and unbelief, he hates God, dislikes all his ways, would not have his glory exalted or manifested, choosing rather to die in enmity against him than to give glory to him. Do not deceive yourselves; it is not an indifferent thing, whether you will come in unto Christ upon his invitations or no, - a thing that you may put off from one season unto another: your present refusal of it is as high an act of enmity against God as you nature is capable of."

I think the "5 points of Calvinism" or the doctrines of grace were in answer to doctrines that were believed to be in error by the Arminians. You see Calvinist beliefs above that don't agree with your conclusions regarding Calvinistic theology. Why do you keep insisting that Calvinists have to interpret these things as you wish, rather than looking at what Calvinist preachers said? Clearly, in Owens words above you see a lot of "free will". But apparently it is not the same free will as you view free will. I would look there for answers.

To believe or repent requires a free will and Calvinism says man has no free will.

Apparently that is not the whole story. You are demanding a level of autonomy that goes far beyond the average Baptist non-Calvinist preacher. Above, in Owen's quote: "but secretly, through the power of darkness, blindness, and unbelief, he hates God". Does that sound like an autonomous free will that can truly evaluate and make a proper "decision", or does that sound like someone who has an impaired free will, dare we say "depraved" which, is truly free in that he can certainly do what he wants to do - but he sees no value in Christ, has no concept of his sin before God, and even has animosity towards anyone suggesting differently - and so needs help. Maybe that "help" is conviction, or "enlightenment" or maybe it's a new nature, but there is more going on than a free will choosing wisely.

 

[Silverhair]

I explained the context of Roman 9:19-20. It is easy to understand unless someone brings preconceived beliefs and an obsessive hatred of the doctrines of grace to the text instead of a willingness to believe God’s Word.

peace to you

The context is Paul replying to a Jew and pointing out that being a Jew does not guarantee salvation. God has chosen the lineage through which the Messiah will come. So what right do you as a mere man, His creation, have to question God.

Calvinists proof-text this particular passage without proper consideration for its actual Jewish context, in which Paul was anticipating the reaction of the judicially hardened Jew upon hearing that God carried out His threat to harden them for unrepentance, according to Jer_18:1-13.


It is because of my willingness to believe God’s Word that I say your so called DoG are actually an affront to the grace of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Here's John Owen, the Calvinist: "But indeed Christ has no such power, no such ability; he cannot save unbelieving, impenitent sinners; for this cannot be done without denying himself, acting contrary to his word, and destroying his own glory... Christ is able to save all them, and only them, who come to God by him. Whilst you live in sin and unbelief, Christ himself cannot save you".
Owens Works Meditations and Discourses concerning the Glory of Christ (Location 10334 Kindle version).
If you mean irresistible grace like that then obviously you are misunderstanding something, or Owen is not a Calvinist.

Now let's look at who these folks are that are excluded from the atonement. Once again I'll use Owen, just a couple of paragraphs later than the above quote: "There is therefore no man who under gospel invitations, refuseth to come unto and close with Christ by believing, but secretly, through the power of darkness, blindness, and unbelief, he hates God, dislikes all his ways, would not have his glory exalted or manifested, choosing rather to die in enmity against him than to give glory to him. Do not deceive yourselves; it is not an indifferent thing, whether you will come in unto Christ upon his invitations or no, - a thing that you may put off from one season unto another: your present refusal of it is as high an act of enmity against God as you nature is capable of."

I think the "5 points of Calvinism" or the doctrines of grace were in answer to doctrines that were believed to be in error by the Arminians. You see Calvinist beliefs above that don't agree with your conclusions regarding Calvinistic theology. Why do you keep insisting that Calvinists have to interpret these things as you wish, rather than looking at what Calvinist preachers said? Clearly, in Owens words above you see a lot of "free will". But apparently it is not the same free will as you view free will. I would look there for answers.

Apparently that is not the whole story. You are demanding a level of autonomy that goes far beyond the average Baptist non-Calvinist preacher. Above, in Owen's quote: "but secretly, through the power of darkness, blindness, and unbelief, he hates God". Does that sound like an autonomous free will that can truly evaluate and make a proper "decision", or does that sound like someone who has an impaired free will, dare we say "depraved" which, is truly free in that he can certainly do what he wants to do - but he sees no value in Christ, has no concept of his sin before God, and even has animosity towards anyone suggesting differently - and so needs help. Maybe that "help" is conviction, or "enlightenment" or maybe it's a new nature, but there is more going on than a free will choosing wisely.

Dave I understand that you like Owen but he is not scripture and you will have to admit that whatever he has written is coming from a Calvinist perspective. I have read both biblical and Calvinist commentaries but I do not base my theology on what some man tells me the bible says but rather what the bible actually says.

Has man rejected God, of course, just look around. But Calvinism has taken it to the point that it is impossible for man to seek God although God seems to think they can and holds them responsible for those free will choices. I know I have pointed this out to you a number of times that man does not make choices in isolation but rather from the information that is available to him be it creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, hearing the gospel message etc. There are only two options 1] God forces man to believe or 2] man makes a free will choice to believe. Which do you hold to Dave?

Dave I know you are fighting to support your Calvinism but what you say regarding mans free will is frankly unbiblical. You have taken man's depravity, which is biblical, and equated it to inability, which is unbiblical.
You asked the question "Why do you keep insisting that Calvinists have to interpret these things as you wish, rather than looking at what Calvinist preachers said?" Do not interpret the bible according to what I have said but rather according to what God has said. I have heard a number of Calvinist preachers, and read many posts on this and other boards, and if they actually held to the bible that would be fine but when they insist on interpreting the word of God through the Calvinist filter that causes a problem.
Now you are going to disagree with what I have just written but turn your question around. Why do you Calvinists insist that those that disagree with your view have to interpret these things as you wish rather than as the bible says?

Your last comment "Maybe that "help" is conviction, or "enlightenment" or maybe it's a new nature, but there is more going on than a free will choosing wisely." actually shows that you have missed what biblical free will is. Man's free will is based on conviction, enlightenment/information but his new nature would only come after he has freely trusted in Christ Jesus and been saved. So it is not "choosing wisely" in the absence of any information as you seem to think but it is making a wise choice based upon information like we see in Ephesians 1:13
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[canadyjd]

The context is Paul replying to a Jew and pointing out that being a Jew does not guarantee salvation. God has chosen the lineage through which the Messiah will come. So what right do you as a mere man, His creation, have to question God…..

The immediate context is found in Romans 9:17. Paul says God raised up Pharaoh (non Jew) to demonstrate His glory. He has mercy on whom He wills and hardens whom He wills.

Then the question in v. 18 “why does He still find fault”?

Then the answer in v. 19 “who are you to speak back to God.”

So, you have completely missed this context of Roman’s 9:19-20 that God will have mercy on whomever He wills with a direct reference to a Gentile Pharaoh (non Jew) in context.

There are references to being children of the flesh verses children of the promise and so forth, but this particular passage directly answers your statement that being unable come to Christ is a perfect excuse for sin.

Peace to you

 

[DaveXR650]

@Silverhair . I don't really disagree with what you are saying. The only thing I would caution is to let your understanding of free will have the same level of autonomy as it has in other areas. At about age 14 you reevaluated your opinion of girls and became extremely interested in them. Eventually, you may have gotten married and it was indeed your choosing but your pursuit was due to attractions beyond your autonomous free will. At the store, you buy a pack of strawberries, chosen out of 30 other fruits. Was that your choice? Yes. But it was not autonomous. Due to everything from brain chemicals to culture and past experience, you made a choice based on inclinations which you did not control.

If you read Calvinists who try to explain this, they will say that before the Holy Spirit acted on you, you found nothing in Christ appealing, you did not believe you needed him, and you liked what you were currently into more than Christ, so you did not choose to come to Christ. Please understand, you really didn't choose to come to Christ. When the Holy Spirit acted you found Christ to be desirable, realized the truth of your situation, and desired to come to Christ. And you then truly decided to come to Christ. There is nothing there that degrades us as the humans that we are. We are acting as finite creatures. All a Calvinist is saying is that we need to understand that we have to depend on God's grace because we cannot get even to the point of a decision without divine help. Now, whether you call this help merely "convicting" or whether it's regeneration, if it is decisive - then you have a monergistic theological system and salvation is considered "all of God".

 

[Silverhair]

The immediate context is found in Romans 9:17. Paul says God raised up Pharaoh (non Jew) to demonstrate His glory. He has mercy on whom He wills and hardens whom He wills.

Then the question in v. 18 “why does He still find fault”?

Then the answer in v. 19 “who are you to speak back to God.”

So, you have completely missed this context of Roman’s 9:19-20 that God will have mercy on whomever He wills with a direct reference to a Gentile Pharaoh (non Jew) in context.

There are references to being children of the flesh verses children of the promise and so forth, but this particular passage directly answers your statement that being unable come to Christ is a perfect excuse for sin.

Peace to you

Sorry there @canadyjd you are reading into the text what you want to see. To understand the immediate context you have to consider the overall context which you alluded to but then seem it pass off as irrelevant.

But lets go back to what I said which you by the way have miss quoted.

What is misunderstood about the DoG

Under Calvinism
Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

If one does not meet any of these conditions then they are doomed from the start.
Calvinism says this brings glory to God. How? Does this show justice? NO.
What is shows is just the opposite of what that bible tells us about God and His stated desire for humanity.

From God's word
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The DoG is the opposite of what God desires.

If Calvinism is true I can't think of a better excuse for an atheist than the one that Calvinism ultimately gives him.
They can honestly say, if Calvinism is true I was born a God hater without the ability to believe in my own God unless He unilaterally picked me before I was even born for reasons that He never reveals and gives me this miracle of faith causing me to believe.

I can't think of a better excuse in the world than I was born unable to believe without a miracle and God withheld that miracle from me.

So @canadyjd it is indeed your Calvinism, your DoG, that gives man this excuse.

Who does God have mercy on? Those that trust in Him. Who does God harden? Those that reject Him.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair . I don't really disagree with what you are saying. The only thing I would caution is to let your understanding of free will have the same level of autonomy as it has in other areas. At about age 14 you reevaluated your opinion of girls and became extremely interested in them. Eventually, you may have gotten married and it was indeed your choosing but your pursuit was due to attractions beyond your autonomous free will. At the store, you buy a pack of strawberries, chosen out of 30 other fruits. Was that your choice? Yes. But it was not autonomous. Due to everything from brain chemicals to culture and past experience, you made a choice based on inclinations which you did not control.

If you read Calvinists who try to explain this, they will say that before the Holy Spirit acted on you, you found nothing in Christ appealing, you did not believe you needed him, and you liked what you were currently into more than Christ, so you did not choose to come to Christ. Please understand, you really didn't choose to come to Christ. When the Holy Spirit acted you found Christ to be desirable, realized the truth of your situation, and desired to come to Christ. And you then truly decided to come to Christ. There is nothing there that degrades us as the humans that we are. We are acting as finite creatures. All a Calvinist is saying is that we need to understand that we have to depend on God's grace because we cannot get even to the point of a decision without divine help. Now, whether you call this help merely "convicting" or whether it's regeneration, if it is decisive - then you have a monergistic theological system and salvation is considered "all of God".

Of course we need divine help to know God. Just as we see it in creation, through the conviction of the Holy Spirit, hearing the gospel message. God has provided all these things and more but it is still the person that has to make that choice. God will not make it for them. And that is where Calvinism falls down. By their own words God saves people before they even believe.
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

Salvation is all of God as only God can save and He has chosen to only save those that trust in His son.
Eph 1:13 is clear hear, believe, saved. Eph 2:5 by grace were saved. Eph 2:8 By grace were saved through faith.

Sorry Dave, biblical salvation is Synergistic it takes both parties to accomplish it. Man to trust in the Son and God to save him because he trusts in the Son.