A Question for the Calvinist among us...

[BD17]

Isa 1:17 Learn to do what is good. Seek justice. Correct the oppressor. Defend the rights of the fatherless. Plead the widow's cause.
Isa 1:18 "Come, let us discuss this," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.
Isa 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land.
Isa 1:20 But if you refuse and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
These verse shows just the opposite. Now what? The Bible doesn't contradict, so either we can "discuss this" (or reason together in some translations) with the Lord, or we can't.

God is speaking to His CHOSEN people people he has already SET apart. He has enabled them to do His will.

 

[Brother Bob]

Adam knew he was disobeying God before they ate of fruit yet they still did it. The reason he hid is because they were ashamed of their nakedness not the act of disobeying God.

Revelation, chapter 3

"18": I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[BD17]

Revelation, chapter 3

"18": I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Man you are bad Bob. What does that have to do with Adam hiding in the garden? Nothing.


God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"[c] 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."

Why does Adam say he was afraid? Because he was naked, notice he does not say...because I disobeyed your command not to eat of the fruit.

 

[Brother Bob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
Revelation, chapter 3

"18": I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


Man you are bad Bob. What does that have to do with Adam hiding in the garden? Nothing.


God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"[c] 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself."

Why does Adam say he was afraid? Because he was naked, notice he does not say...because I disobeyed your command not to eat of the fruit.

Adam knew he had sinned DB; even doulous said God made an atonement for their sins by shedding the blood of animals. I hope you are writing this down for I hate to go through all of this and you not learn anything.

 

[BD17]

Revelation, chapter 3

"18": I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

You failed to put the rest of that verse in there Bob Jesus is reprimanding the members of the church of sardis, He is telling them that because they are luke warm he wil spit them out ie have nothing to do with them, He tells them that THEY think THEY are rich but Jesus tells them they THINK they are rich when in reality they are "not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. Jesus is telling them to buy His gold because it is the best, to hide the shame of their nakedness in His garments.


That verse in no way proves that Adam was not hiding becuse of His nakedness. Adam does not repent for His sin he blames his WIFE, and she blames the serpent, they in no way too responsibility for their sin yet what did God do... He clothed them with animal skin the, first act of GRACE inspite of their disobedience. A great parrallel to Christ dying for our sins even though we in no way deserve it.

 

[BD17]

Adam knew he had sinned DB; even doulous said God made an atonement for their sins by shedding the blood of animals. I hope you are writing this down for I hate to go through all of this and you not learn anything.

Yes God made an atonement for their sins, that does not mean that Adam admitted he sinned. God made the atonement in spite of Adam's refusal to confess what he had done. Which is a great picture of God's mercy and grace on sinners. Adam and eve did not ASK God to make them garments He just did.

Out of Adam's own mouth he says "I was afraid because I was naked

For someone who uses scripture so literally (no infant baptism becasue scripture does not say so) you sure are missing the mark on this one.

 

[Brother Bob]

No, I think this is one you all will not be able to talk your way out of. Adam knew he sinned and also Confessed he did to God before the atonement. Destroys your belief that faith comes afterwards ,there was no one else to be ashamed in front of, except God and Adam knew God would come along. You believe Adam had a choice whether to eat or not but you don't believe he had a choice to hide or not.

 

[BD17]

No, I think this is one you all will not be able to talk you way out of. Adam knew he sinned and also Confessed he did to God before the atonement. Destroys your belief that faith comes afterwards ,for was no one to be ashamed of except God and Adam knew God would come along.

You are so blind Bob here read the text i will bold it so you can see...



8And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"[c] 10And he said, "I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself." 11He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14The LORD God said to the serpent,

"Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
15I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[d] and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel."

16To the woman he said,

"I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for[e] your husband,
and he shall rule over you."


17And to Adam he said,

"Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
'You shall not eat of it,'
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return."


20The man called his wife's name Eve,[f] because she was the mother of all living. 21And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.


Show me where Adam confessed before the Atonement(which takes place in verse 21 by the way)? Hmmmm I did not see any confession on Adam's part, only blame(v12) and Eve... let's see she blames the serpent(v13). No where do they take responsiblity for their sinfulness. Instead they justify their sin by blaming someone else. Much like we do today.

So Bob show me where Adam confesses and asks for forgiveness.

 

[Brother Bob]

"I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself." 11He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
What do you think he was doing "telling God off".

(lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever)
Looks to me like he had the power to reach out and get eternal life, don't you think?

watch the remarks !!!

 

[BD17]

"I heard the sound of you in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked, and I hid myself." 11He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." 13Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this that you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
What do you think he was doing "telling God off".

He answered God's question by BLAMING his wife for his actions, he did not confess, he did not go to God of his own accord and tell Him what he had done, instead He hid. that is not a confession.

 

[Brother Bob]

What is a confession?

 

[Grasshopper]

And since Adam and Eve both tried to cover their nakedness, they MUST have been alive enough to respond to the conviction they felt for that nakedness. So for the Calvinist to say that a dead man cannot respond to the convicting power of God is moot.

Jesus is as a Lamb slain before the foundations of the world. Why did God have to shed the blood of animals to cover Adam and Eve since Jesus was already as the Lamb slain?

Seems Calvinism has too many holes to float for very long.raying:

1. It seems what Adam did with his knowledge is what all man do with the same knowledge, run and hide from God not seek Him out.

2. Too bad you weren't born 500 years ago, you could have corrected Luther and saved us all alot of time.

 

[Brother Bob]

Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

You think he could of had the power on his own to reach out and take of the Tree of Life and Live forever?

I thought the dead didn't know anything?

 

[Grasshopper]

Was the Tree of Life salvation? Or perhaps immortality?

 

[doulous]

Both passages were written to believers, but 1 Corinthians 2:14 was written to carnal Christians, who still have the "natural man" (sinful nature) within, as do all believers. This does not show that a spiritually dead man cannot respond to God.
Corinthians 3:1 Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ.

This is why my posting on the BB has dropped considerably. When scripture doesn't fit your interpreation you just change it so it does. Predictable.

 

[LeBuick]

DB;
Don't you think it is good for a man and woman to hide their naked bodies? Also did not Adam make a confession to God of all he and Eve had done.

Not really, Man only knew he was naked because of sin. Had he not have sinned he would not had shame of his nakedness.

Knowing good from evil was not the sin or what made man fall. It was the disobediance to GOD by eating of the fruit.

Before man fell he was innocent like a baby. Like a baby he did not know right from wrong. You have never seen a prejudice baby. Babies have no shame of being naked. They are innocent.

 

[LeBuick]

Was the Tree of Life salvation? Or perhaps immortality?

Interesting question, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: What are your thought on this?

 

[Jarthur001]

No, I think this is one you all will not be able to talk your way out of. Adam knew he sinned and also Confessed he did to God before the atonement. Destroys your belief that faith comes afterwards ,there was no one else to be ashamed in front of, except God and Adam knew God would come along. You believe Adam had a choice whether to eat or not but you don't believe he had a choice to hide or not.

This is clearly wrong. Christ was the only real atonement EVER. Faith was not in the lamb, but in the coming "Lamb". Faith is not in what we see ...but in what we do not see but KNOW (understand) and hope for. All that had faith in the NT had faith in Christ someday coming as our atonement. All other blood sacrifices to God were just pictures of Christ. This is ture of the garden too. It is a great picture..God demanded a sacrifice, gave the sacrifice and was the scarifice. This my friend is grace.

Being that is the case, all sins of the OT were DONE before Christ came to be that sacrifice. Beyond the cross, the atonement in the blood of Christ was given before sins came in our own life. Christ died and knew of your sins before you even thought about sinning.

So yes the idea of atonement was before faith..in the OT..and the very atonement was before our sins and our faith in the NT.




In Christ..James

 

[Brother Bob]

Don't you think it is good for a man and woman to hide their naked bodies? Also did not Adam make a confession to God of all he and Eve had done

Not really, Man only knew he was naked because of sin. Had he not have sinned he would not had shame of his nakedness.

(I think he had already sinned at this point hadn’t he?)

Knowing good from evil was not the sin or what made man fall. It was the disobediance to GOD by eating of the fruit.
(Who said any different, I agree wholeheartly.)

Before man fell he was innocent like a baby. Like a baby he did not know right from wrong. You have never seen a prejudice baby. Babies have no shame of being naked. They are innocent

(don’t know where you getting all this for no one said he knowed before he sinned. You just answering yourself or what?)

Now, isn’t the end result of "reaching out and taking of the tree of life and live forever" and "being saved " the same? If man can do this on his own it seems that man is able to choose good or evil, don't you think?

 

[Brother Bob]

This is clearly wrong. Christ was the only real atonement EVER. Faith was not in the lamb, but in the coming "Lamb". Faith is not in what we see ...but in what we do not see but KNOW (understand) and hope for. All that had faith in the NT had faith in Christ someday coming as our atonement. All other blood sacrifices to God were just pictures of Christ. This is ture of the garden too. It is a great picture..God demanded a sacrifice, gave the sacrifice and was the scarifice. This my friend is grace.

Being that is the case, all sins of the OT were DONE before Christ came to be that sacrifice. Beyond the cross, the atonement in the blood of Christ was given before sins came in our own life. Christ died and knew of your sins before you even thought about sinning.

So yes the idea of atonement was before faith..in the OT..and the very atonement was before our sins and our faith in the NT.

I agree James someone else called it the atonement and I just picked it up but got scorched. Its just, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, and I don't really know what to call it, for he made them clothes from animal skins so there must of been some blood shed. What would you call it?