A Question for the Calvinist among us...

[russell55]

Were these Gentiles doing good by doing the things contained in the law?
I didn't ask if they could be saved by it...we all know the answer is NO. But, we're they doing good?

The acts they were doing were good in themselves. In other words, not stealing, for instance, is a good thing, so everytime someone doesn't steal, it's good. Everytime someone doesn't murder, it's good.

But they are not things of spiritual good, unless they were not stealing and not murdering for the right reason: out of love and service to God--Commandment #1.

And BTW, calvinists believe that spiritually dead people can and do perform acts of civil good. It's spiritual good that they can't do. They can't serve God because they love him, since their natural disposition is opposition to God.

 

[webdog]

Was Adam spiritually dead after the fall or not?

Do you believe God when he said that if Adam ate from the tree, he would die (Gen. 2:17)?

Yes I do, and thank you, you proved my point very well.:applause:

 

[webdog]

How do you think this is dealing with my arguements when I agreed with you that men cannot "do good" on their own? That is a strawman. We all affirm the truth that on our own man could do nothing good or pleasing. But we are NOT ON OUR OWN! Our problem is that we need to be reconciled to God but God has provided a solution to that problem by sending a powerful life-giving message of reconcilation. You assume that the message in and of itself is not sufficient to enable a fallen man to respond in faith but the only passages you provide are about man's inability if left without spiritual help.

2 Cor. 2:14 for example. As its already been pointed out Paul is speaking about the "deep things of God" (vs. 10) which even the "brethern" in Corith are not yet able to receive (ch. 3:1-2), so it can't be "the gospel" to which Paul is referring. Plus, who is saying that man could understand the deep secrets of God without them being spiritually decerned. What do you think the inspiration of the gospel message was? Is it not a Spiritual decernment of the truths regarding atonement? So this verse is not saying lost men can't understand the gospel unless the spirit regenerates them first, as you assume. It only says that lost men can't understand deep unrevealed truths of God unless they are revealed by God through his Spirit. The content of the gospel has been revealed by the spirit. The gospel is an act of spiritual decernment. Nothing in this passage goes so far as to require regeneration in order to understand the gospel.

Great post. The calvinist does not want to believe the "natural man" can be anything besides an unregenerated person. You point this out to them, and you get accused of changing the context to fit your beliefs (I won't name names). The truth is, we ALL still have the "natural man" within us, but believers are given a new spirit, also.

 

[DorthyMontine]

BD17

“The reason he hid is because they were ashamed of their nakedness not the act of disobeying God. …Why does Adam say he was afraid? Because he was naked, notice he does not say...because I disobeyed your command not to eat of the fruit.”

Hmm… the question that comes to my mind is: Why in the world was he ashamed of his nakedness to begin with? Was it because he now knew ‘good’ and ‘evil’. Was it because he now understood the consequences of his sin? I say, YES! Obviously, Adam had a conscious that was aware of both good and evil…both obedience and disobedience. And brother, he was hiding long before the skins of animals were wrapped around him! He was aware of sin, his sin. He was ashamed of it. He feared God because of it.

For me, this event in the garden right at the very beginning, proves that a man with a fallen sinful nature can and does know good and evil. I think it is wrong to say we inherited a sin nature from Adam and then try to make his sin nature different than ours, that just doesn’t jive.


russell55

“And BTW, calvinists believe that spiritually dead people can and do perform acts of civil good. It's spiritual good that they can't do.”

Is this word play? ‘civil good’ & ‘spiritual good’ To obey your parents is a command from God. To do so, whether you are a saved person or a lost person is to do good. And that good is a spiritual good. Because ‘good’ and ’evil’ are truly spiritual conditions. To use the reasoning that a spiritually dead person can only do ‘civil good’ but not ‘spiritual good’ then one must also say a spiritually dead person can only do 'civil evil’, but not ’spiritual evil’… I doubt any Calvinist will say that. And in my opinion, this line of reasoning with ‘civil good’ and ‘spiritual good’ is not a ‘good’ one. laugh: Excuse the pun.)

NOW, I understand that his doing the good of obeying his parents has no redemptive value, I‘ll agree with that, because man is never saved by his works! But… can a man with a sinful nature make a conscious decision to do good… YES, I believe he can.

 

[Skandelon]

The acts they were doing were good in themselves. In other words, not stealing, for instance, is a good thing, so everytime someone doesn't steal, it's good. Everytime someone doesn't murder, it's good.

But they are not things of spiritual good, unless they were not stealing and not murdering for the right reason: out of love and service to God--Commandment #1.

And BTW, calvinists believe that spiritually dead people can and do perform acts of civil good. It's spiritual good that they can't do. They can't serve God because they love him, since their natural disposition is opposition to God.

Only those things which are done IN FAITH are pleasing to God and thus "good." All the rest is filthy rags in his sight. There is nothing in scripture which even comes close to suggesting that the fall made faith in God unattainable unless first regenerated. That doctrine is assumed and read into the texts.

 

[Skandelon]

Great post. The calvinist does not want to believe the "natural man" can be anything besides an unregenerated person. You point this out to them, and you get accused of changing the context to fit your beliefs (I won't name names). The truth is, we ALL still have the "natural man" within us, but believers are given a new spirit, also.

Thank you. This point is vital to understanding the errors of Calvinistic dogma. I bought into Calvinism for many years but once these truths were made clear to me I realized the inherent errors of this system of thought.

 

[Skandelon]

Great post. The calvinist does not want to believe the "natural man" can be anything besides an unregenerated person. You point this out to them, and you get accused of changing the context to fit your beliefs (I won't name names). The truth is, we ALL still have the "natural man" within us, but believers are given a new spirit, also.

Thank you. This point is vital to understanding the errors of Calvinistic dogma. I bought into Calvinism for many years but once these truths were made clear to me I realized the inherent errors of this system of thought.

 

[BD17]

Yes, and I bought into free-willism Arminism whatever you want to call it-ism, but once the TRUTHS of "calvinism" were made clear to me I realizeed the inherent errors of that system of thought.

Now who's right?

 

[DorthyMontine]

Now who's right?

You didn't ask me, but I say, Neither.

I reject them both, they were but men trying to figure out the mind of God! Though I can see some good teachings in both camps, yet I also find that both go to extremes in which the written Word of God does not. Some things are left to GOD ALONE! We are not Him!

Just call me a Christian, a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ.

From what I have experienced, most Arminians have an easier time accepting that position than Calvinist do. Wonder why that is?

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, and I bought into free-willism Arminism whatever you want to call it-ism, but once the TRUTHS of "calvinism" were made clear to me I realizeed the inherent errors of that system of thought.

Now who's right?

I suspect that one day God will gather us all up and explain everything in detail.








By the way, He has personally ask me to assist Him in this process! :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

Yea, I got the same calling Skandelon. :laugh: :thumbs: :type: busy busy busy!!

 

[BD17]

That's funny... cause He asked me the same thing. Hmmmm... ;-)

 

[Skandelon]

That's funny... cause He asked me the same thing. Hmmmm... ;-)

Well, He had to have someone showing everyone how not to do it. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BD17]

Glad you can accept your lot in life. Iit hurts less when you can admit your shortcomings doesn't it. It's okay skan God asked me to help you find your way back.

 

[Brother Bob]

God help him.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Salamander]

It is a great question! Adam was spiritually dead after his sin until the Lord atoned for his sins. Look at the following passage:

Genesis 3:21 21 And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

This is an oft overlooked passage. In order to make garments of skin, God had to slay animals. This was an act of propitiation on part of God. Remember what the scripture says:

Hebrews 9:22 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

I believe that Adam and Eve were forgiven by God for their sin per the shedding of sacrifical blood. This would mean that they were no longer spiritually dead.

By that estimation, Adam kept dying every year until the high priest atoned for the people's sins on Yom Kippur.:laugh:

And then what else you said is that Adam and Eve were redeemed by the blood of animals, better read the entire Book of hebrews again.

 

[Salamander]

Was the Tree of Life salvation? Or perhaps immortality?

Oh, please, now your gonna go and confuse the two as if they are even related to each other!

 

[russell55]

To obey your parents is a command from God. To do so, whether you are a saved person or a lost person is to do good. And that good is a spiritual good

To obey your parents as a lost person is not a righteous act, because truly righteous acts are only those done for right reasons. As skandelon mentioned, that means they must be done from faith, and a lost person is not acting in faith.

When a lost person obeys his parents, that's a good act in the sense that it's beneficial to himself and his parents and society--hence the term civil good. But it's not a righteous act, and hence not an act of spiritual good.

And when people say someone who is spiritually dead cannot do spiritual good, that's what they mean. That the spiritually dead person cannot be truly righteous and do truly righteous things, because to be truly righteous requires the power of the Holy Spirit, the power of the new creation, the power of new life.

 

[russell55]

There is nothing in scripture which even comes close to suggesting that the fall made faith in God unattainable unless first regenerated.

Do you believe that people have true faith apart from the power of the Holy Spirit? Both before and after the fall?

 

[Skandelon]

Do you believe that people have true faith apart from the power of the Holy Spirit? Both before and after the fall?

No. Not "apart from the power of the Holy Spirit." But, Russell, what is the power of the Holy Spirit?

Options:
1. An irresistable inward working never expounded upon in the scripture.

OR

2. The powerful Holy Spirit inspired gospel of truth which is spoken of consistently through the scripture as the "power of God unto Salvation" and working like a "double edged sword cutting body and soul."

I think Calvinist have underestimated the power of God's word. Jesus called his words "spirit and life." And yet Calvinists assume that his words alone are insufficient to enable faith. Paul says, "Faith comes by hearing," yet Calvinists insist faith comes by hearing only if one is regenerated first. Our new birth is spoken of as coming through the message of truth. We are born again through the word of God.