A Question for the Calvinist among us...

[BD17]

Stop! Quit making sense! You know corpses cannot "clearly see" and "understand" God's attributes through what He has made!

there is a difference between knowing good and being able to do it. Oretty convenient of you guys to leave out the rest of Romans 2 that describes all the things man does even though he "knows" good.

Here are some verses that describe how much good man "knows" compared to what he ACTUALLY does according to God.

Psalm 58:3 "Even from birth the wiked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."


Psalm 130:3 "If you, O Lord kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand?"

Prov. 20:9 "Who can say 'I have kept my heart pure; I am clean without sin'?"

Eccl. 7:20 "There is not a rightous man on earth who does what is right and never sins"

Eccl. 9:3 "The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live"

Isaiah 53:6 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way."

Isaiah 64:6 "All of us have become like one who is unlean, and all our rightous acts are like filthy rags."

Jer. 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who an understand it?"

Matt. 7:21-23 "For from within, out of man's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander,arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man unlean."

Jn 3:19 "Men loved darkness instead of light.

Jn 8:34 "Jesus replied,'I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slve to sin."

Jn. 8:44 "You belong to you father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire."

Rom. 3:9-12 "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. AS it is written:
"There is no one rightous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one'"

Rom. 6:20 "You were slaves to sin."

Rom. 8:7-8 "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. THose controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."


1Cor. 2:14 "The man without the spiritdoes not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."


Listen to the words used to describe our condition, SLAVE to sin, our hearts are FILLED with evil, from WITHIN, out of men's hearts. Ephesians says we are "dead in our transgressions and sins," do these sound like conditions we can get out of ourselves? Do you know any slaves that just decided to stop being a slave, know any one who raised themselves from the dead? No, because the whole idea is that we cannot do this without the freegift of grace in our lives from our Father through his Son Jesus.

So we can know good but we are incapable of doing it. Sola Scriptura.:thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

DB;
Don't you think it is good for a man and woman to hide their naked bodies? Also did not Adam make a confession to God of all he and Eve had done.

 

[doulous]

If man is 'dead', in the sense that the doctrines of Calvinism teaches, then how do you explain what God said in Genesis 3:22...

"Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil..."

If man is as dead as I understand the Calvinist to teach, then how can he know good?

Hi Dorthy,

This is not a difficult question to answer. The Hebrew word "yada" (know) is often translated to mean "comprehend." Man has an innate knowledge of good and evil. Man does not have a spiritual appreciation for "good" because his nature is not able to receive it. This is what Paul meant when he wrote these words:

1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

But we cannot overlook Adam's specific situation. Until his disobedience in the garden, Adam was without sin. His intellect, spirit and body had not experienced the ravages of sin. Adam had intimate fellowship with God (Gen. 1:28-32). God created Adam in His image (Gen. 1:26). Until his disobedience in the garden Adam was not a sinner and did not possess a sin nature, therefore it is not illogical to deduce that Adam did have a thorough knowledge of good and evil. Since Adam, the human race has been born in sin and with a fallen nature. It is that fallen nature that corrupts all that is good and holy.

Hope this explanation helps.

 

[Brother Bob]

But we cannot overlook Adam's specific situation. Until his disobedience in the garden, Adam was without sin. His intellect, spirit and body had not experienced the ravages of sin. Adam had intimate fellowship with God (Gen. 1:28-32). He was created Adam in the image of God (Gen. 1:26). Until his disobedience in the garden Adam was not a sinner and did not possess a sin nature, therefore it is not illogical to deduce that Adam did have a thorough knowledge of good and evil. Since Adam the human race has been born in sin and with a fallen nature. It is that fallen nature that corrupts all that is good and holy.

Hope this explanation helps.

Adam was the same as we according to the following Scripture.

Romans, chapter 8
"20": For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

"21": Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


Adam by the above Scripture put the vanity into action. I think Satan was dealing with more than Adam's body for the body without the Spirit is dead. Also Adam made a complete confession to God of what he and Eve had done. I also think Adam not only had the natural death pronounced on him that day but also a spiritual death which needed repentance to escape.

 

[Skandelon]

Listen to the words used to describe our condition, SLAVE to sin, our hearts are FILLED with evil, from WITHIN, out of men's hearts. Ephesians says we are "dead in our transgressions and sins," do these sound like conditions we can get out of ourselves?

No. But are they conditions that we could get out of with the assistance of the Spirit working through means of the powerful gospel truth?

YES! Praise the Lord!

Can men resist the working of the Spirit through such means? Of course. Passages such as Matt 23:37 and Acts 7:51 tells us plainly that men resist the work of the Holy Spirit.

No one here is claiming we can overcome our fallen condition on our own. That is a strawman. Please address our actual arguments.

 

[DorthyMontine]

Skandelon:

This doesn't really address the main issue of concern being expressed in this thread. On what grounds do Calvinist conclude that the hearing of God's powerful gospel truth is not sufficient in and of itself to lead a man to faith? We all agree that "on his own" a man would not seek God or understand the secret mysteries of His Kingdom, but what is too say that man who hears those truths explained clearly to them in their own human language couldn't respond to them in faith? I see nothing in scripture which would lead anyone to conclude that the gospel, "the power of God unto salvation," is alone insufficient to lead a fallen man to faith and repentance. Where does the scripture ever say that regeneration is required and irresistably draws men to faith?

Thanks for keeping the discussion focused to the question.

 

[webdog]

Man does not have a spiritual appreciation for "good" because his nature is not able to receive it.

A "dead man" cannot have a spiritual appreciation for "good", but a "dead man" can desire what's spriritually "bad"? A spiritual "corpse" cannot desire anything, or know the difference, which brings us to... without Law, sin cannot be imputed. Can't have your cake and eat it too! Dead is either dead, or it aint.

 

[DorthyMontine]

BD17

Just because God is a spirit does not mean that the good and bad spoken of here is ONLY spiritual.

Hmm... This is strange idea to me. So, then if good and bad are not 'spiritual' what are they?

For instance...if the righteousness of man is as filthy rags, then is that not 'spiritually bad'? So, then that good would be spiritual, just bad! :wavey: :laugh:

 

[doulous]

A "dead man" cannot have a spiritual appreciation for "good", but a "dead man" can desire what's spriritually "bad"? A spiritual "corpse" cannot desire anything, or know the difference, which brings us to... without Law, sin cannot be imputed. Can't have your cake and eat it too! Dead is either dead, or it aint.

They are spiritually dead to the things of God only. Look at the context of Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Paul writes that the spiritually dead person, "...formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the price of the power of the air..." The spiritually dead person is dead to the things of God. The text bears this out plainly. I suppose you can say they are "alive" to the things of Satan, in whose dominion they are in. When you look at this passage in Ephesians and compare it to 1 Cor. 2:14 it makes perfect sense.

 

[DorthyMontine]

Webdog:

Was Adam spiritually dead after the fall or not?

Good question...very relevent to the question at hand, don't you think. :thumbs:

 

[DorthyMontine]

BD17

Do you know any slaves that just decided to stop being a slave

No, but I've read about a lot who desired to be set free, even before they were! raying:

 

[Skandelon]

A "dead man" cannot have a spiritual appreciation for "good", but a "dead man" can desire what's spriritually "bad"? A spiritual "corpse" cannot desire anything, or know the difference, which brings us to... without Law, sin cannot be imputed. Can't have your cake and eat it too! Dead is either dead, or it aint.

Your point and the one Dorothy made are great points. Calvinists like to claim that men's "deadness" must be interpreted to mean they cannot respond in faith, but they fail to recognize that those who are dead can reject Christ. How does a dead man reject or refuse the Holy Spirit as seen in Acts 7:51?

Also, by this logic when Paul says that believers are "dead to sin" in Romans 6 it must mean believers are totally unable to sin. Are believers corpses to their sin nature and unable to do anything sinful? I wish! raise:

 

[doulous]

Webdog:



Good question...very relevent to the question at hand, don't you think. :thumbs:

It is a great question! Adam was spiritually dead after his sin until the Lord atoned for his sins. Look at the following passage:

Genesis 3:21 21 And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

This is an oft overlooked passage. In order to make garments of skin, God had to slay animals. This was an act of propitiation on part of God. Remember what the scripture says:

Hebrews 9:22 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

I believe that Adam and Eve were forgiven by God for their sin per the shedding of sacrifical blood. This would mean that they were no longer spiritually dead.

 

[Brother Bob]

He sinned didn't he so he was spiritually dead but yet he knew he had sinned, he knew that he needed to hide his nakedness and also he knew he needed to make a confession to God.

 

[Brother Bob]

It is a great question! Adam was spiritually dead after his sin until the Lord atoned for his sins. Look at the following passage:

Genesis 3:21 21 And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.

This is an oft overlooked passage. In order to make garments of skin, God had to slay animals. This was an act of propitiation on part of God. Remember what the scripture says:

So, you agree he was spiritually dead after he eat of the tree and disobeyed God. Yet, he himself hid himself because he was ashame and also confessed his sin to God before any blood was shed as you say.

 

[BD17]

No. But are they conditions that we could get out of with the assistance of the Spirit working through means of the powerful gospel truth?

YES! Praise the Lord!

Can men resist the working of the Spirit through such means? Of course. Passages such as Matt 23:37 and Acts 7:51 tells us plainly that men resist the work of the Holy Spirit.

No one here is claiming we can overcome our fallen condition on our own. That is a strawman. Please address our actual arguments.

i am addressing your actual arguments, you argue that if man was made to know good and evil then this knowledge must also mean he can choose to do that good. man cannot and my verses show you why their is a difference between KNOWING good and being ABLE to do good.

 

[webdog]

I suppose you can say they are "alive" to the things of Satan, in whose dominion they are in. When you look at this passage in Ephesians and compare it to 1 Cor. 2:14 it makes perfect sense.

Both passages were written to believers, but 1 Corinthians 2:14 was written to carnal Christians, who still have the "natural man" (sinful nature) within, as do all believers. This does not show that a spiritually dead man cannot respond to God.
Corinthians 3:1 Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ.

 

[BD17]

So, you agree he was spiritually dead after he eat of the tree and disobeyed God. Yet, he himself hid himself because he was ashame and also confessed his sin to God before any blood was shed as you say.

Adam knew he was disobeying God before they ate of fruit yet they still did it. The reason he hid is because they were ashamed of their nakedness not the act of disobeying God.

 

[webdog]

i am addressing your actual arguments, you argue that if man was made to know good and evil then this knowledge must also mean he can choose to do that good. man cannot and my verses show you why their is a difference between KNOWING good and being ABLE to do good.

Isa 1:17 Learn to do what is good. Seek justice. Correct the oppressor. Defend the rights of the fatherless. Plead the widow's cause.
Isa 1:18 "Come, let us discuss this," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.
Isa 1:19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land.
Isa 1:20 But if you refuse and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
These verse shows just the opposite. Now what? The Bible doesn't contradict, so either we can "discuss this" (or reason together in some translations) with the Lord, or we can't.

 

[Brother Bob]

Adam knew he was disobeying God before they ate of fruit yet they still did it. The reason he hid is because they were ashamed of their nakedness not the act of disobeying God.

You are kidding aren't you?

Colossians, chapter 3
"5": Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

James, chapter 4
"1": From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Romans, chapter 6
"13": Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

"14": For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

"15": What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

"16": Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

If you know "good and evil" and who ever you yield your members you are the servant thereof.