A Question for the Calvinist among us...

[npetreley]

there is a difference between knowing good and being able to do it. Oretty convenient of you guys to leave out the rest of Romans 2 that describes all the things man does even though he "knows" good.

Bingo. Knowing good, and being able to do good (God's good) are two different things. The evidence that man is spiritually dead is that he knows good, but is INCLINED to do otherwise. When man is regenerated, he becomes aware of his condition and repents, and is given a new inclination.

 

[Skandelon]

Bingo. Knowing good, and being able to do good (God's good) are two different things. The evidence that man is spiritually dead is that he knows good, but is INCLINED to do otherwise. When man is regenerated, he becomes aware of his condition and repents, and is given a new inclination.

Don't you think its interesting that despite all that Paul says about the Gentiles and Jews lack of righteousness despite all they knew that there were still men and women throughout the OT and into the NT that were considered righteous in God's sight. On the one hand Paul is saying "no one is righteous" but on the other he also goes on to say that Abraham is righteous. How can that be? Could their be two different forms of "righteousness" being discussed? One attained as if it were by works and the other as if it were through faith. The first is NOT possible to attain, but there is nothing said about the second being equally impossible for men to attain. Quite the opposite, Paul actually gives examples of those who did have faith and how that was credited to THEM as righteousness.

So, Romans 1-3:20 is proving that no one is righteous, no not even one in accordance with the righteousness attained through works, but go on to read verse 21, which says, "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known."

Calvinist make the mistake of using passages such as Romans 3:10-11 to prove men are unable to attain righteousness through faith, when its quite clear that is not the "righteousness" Paul is even addressing.

 

[Brother Bob]

So now the non-elect know "good" but all he can do is look at it, he has to do evil all the time looking at good. raise:

 

[BD17]

So now the non-elect know "good" but all he can do is look at it, he has to do evil all the time looking at good. raise:

Once again Bob does not understand. If you read the posts you will see that they can do "good" things like obet their parents, etc, but does that mean that God sees that unbeliever as "good" or righteous. No.

 

[Brother Bob]

Once again Bob does not understand. If you read the posts you will see that they can do "good" things like obet their parents, etc, but does that mean that God sees that unbeliever as "good" or righteous. No.

Is it me or you that don't understand? Lets see now, is there any "good" coming from satan. If we do good are we following satan? I don't think so, and "obey parents" is from the Lord, so you surely do err again. Also, ever time I post you attack. Are you my attack dog or what? Now if we do evil is it from the Lord? I don't think so. So your post makes little sense at all. Is it good in the eyes of the Lord to "obey your parents", according to Scripture it is but you want to turn it flat on its face. That which is "good" is of the Lord. Now if you give money to the poor and its for any other reason than good then its evil. For if you give it for status, reward, a pat on the back you are doing it for your own selfish reasons. So if you attack someone for your own selfish reasons are you doing good? I think not but you are doing evil.

I read the posts and how many "good" are there anyway. It eithe good or evil. Any way you are the one who says man can't do any thing on his own, so he is either following the Lord or he is following the devil. The Scripture and that is what I "like", say whosoever you lend your member to you are the servant thereof.

 

[BD17]

Is it me or you that don't understand? Lets see now, is there any "good" coming from satan. If we do good are we following satan? I don't think so, and "obey parents" is from the Lord, so you surely do err again. Also, ever time I post you attack. Are you my attack dog or what? Now if we do evil is it from the Lord? I don't think so. So your post makes little sense at all. Is it good in the eyes of the Lord to "obey your parents", according to Scripture it is but you want to turn it flat on its face. That which is "good" is of the Lord. Now if you give money to the poor and its for any other reason than good then its evil. For if you give it for status, reward, a pat on the back you are doing it for your own selfish reasons. So if you attack someone for your own selfish reasons are you doing good? I think not but you are doing evil.

Sorry you are feel like you are being attacked, but you are not reading the entire posts and then you are misrepresenting the entire post. Let me ask you a question Bob. If an unbeliever never lies, steals, cheats, kills, obeys their parents, does the right thing morally, are they going to go to heaven. Is God going to make an exception for that person because they always did the "good" things? No He is not. In God's eyes that person is just as bad as the person that does lie, steal, cheat, kill, disrespect their parents, is immorral etc.


I just read your edit and I think we may agree, if one is following the devil who is the ONLY person that can deliver that person from the devil? Not the person on their own or by their own desires but by Christ.

I know many men and woman that are "good" people, I know many men that are good husbands, but does that make them righteous and acceptable in the eyes of the Lord? No it does not you know why? Because they do not believe in God. The think Christ was a good person who had good things to teach. Their "good" actions are filfth in the presence of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

I know many men and woman that are "good" people, I know many men that are good husbands, but does that make them righteous and acceptable in the eyes of the Lord? No it does not you know why? Because they do not believe in God. The think Christ was a good person who had good things to teach. Their "good" actions are filfth in the presence of God.

You don't know any that haven't did something wrong for "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God", so you have posed a question that does not even apply and couldn't apply. Also, unbelief if enough to send you to hell and if you do believe then you will "keep all of my Commandments", so again, your questions makes no sense.
Now the good you speak of above of a good husband, good person what makes those things good? Could it be because God required them, and if so, then the husband is doing what God required him to do and not even saved. How about that!!:thumbs:

Even you have admitted a man can do "good" which is commanded of God before Salvation!!

 

[BD17]

You don't know any that haven't did something wrong for "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God", so you have posed a question that does not even apply and couldn't apply. Also, unbelief if enough to send you to hell and if you do believe then you will "keep all of my Commandments", so again, your questions makes no sense.
Now the good you speak of above of a good husband, good person what makes those things good? Could it be because God required them, and if so, then the husband is doing what God required him to do and not even saved. How about that!!:thumbs:

Even you have admitted a man can do "good" which is commanded of God before Salvation!!

My question makes perfect sense. For what do you consider good actions? if the husband is doing good things and is an unbeliever He is not doing it to obey God's commandments. Also the "good" a person does is not done because God commands them to do it, if someone does not believe then they also do not feel like they have to obey God's commandments.

 

[Brother Bob]

My question makes perfect sense. For what do you consider good actions? if the husband is doing good things and is an unbeliever He is not doing it to obey God's commandments. Also the "good" a person does is not done because God commands them to do it, if someone does not believe then they also do not feel like they have to obey God's commandments.

Your question makes no sense at all and "the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep His Commandments". You have admitted that a unsaved man can do good and "good" is of God. Who do you think made "good". I never heard such statements trying to get out of a hole you dug for yourself.

 

[webdog]

Once again Bob does not understand. If you read the posts you will see that they can do "good" things like obet their parents, etc, but does that mean that God sees that unbeliever as "good" or righteous. No.

...but I thought DEAD people cannot do anything?

 

[BD17]

Your question makes no sense at all and "the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep His Commandments". You have admitted that a unsaved man can do good and "good" is of God. Who do you think made "good". I never heard such statements trying to get out of a hole you dug for yourself.

If an unsaved man can do good that is good in the sight of the Lord then why do they need Christ. I have not dug any hole you make NO SENSE, you believe that man can do good and that good is of God than that must mean those men are Godly and if they are godly why do they need to believe in Christ at all.

Do you think an unbeliever that does the commandments of God is a sinner? According to what you have stated he is not.

 

[Skandelon]

I have to somewhat agree with BD17 on one point. A person may do a "good" deed but its not good in God's sight unless it is done in faith. If its not done "in faith" then it is as "filty rags" to God.

But as I explained earlier (but it has gone ignored)...

There are two different forms of "righteousness" being discussed in Romans. One attained as if it were by works and the other as if it were through faith (cr: Rm. 9:30-32). The first is NOT possible to attain, but there is nothing said about the second being equally impossible for men to attain. Quite the opposite, Paul actually gives examples of those who did have faith and how that was credited to THEM as righteousness.

So, Romans 1-3:20 is proving that no one is righteous, no not even one in accordance with the righteousness attained through works, but go on to read verse 21, which says, "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known."

Calvinist make the mistake of using passages such as Romans 3:10-11 to prove men are unable to attain righteousness through faith, when its quite clear that is not the "righteousness" Paul is even addressing

 

[Brother Bob]

If its not good in God's sight who judgeth all men then its not good. God is the one who made good and evil and that which is good was made of God. Now if you seeking Salvation you have to do it in faith but if its good it came from God, for the devil don't do good. I once again say whoever you lend your members to you are the servant thereof. To say a man can't do good (which is of God) is to say a man can't repent, believe, feed the poor which God made all of these things "good". The devil certainly didn't.

Bring ye fruits meet for repentance. Don't you think John the Baptist meant "good".

If an unbeliever never lies, steals, cheats, kills, obeys their parents,

All of the above are Commandments of God and if a man believer or non believer keeps them then he is doing what God Commanded.

 

[BD17]

I have to somewhat agree with BD17 on one point. A person may do a "good" deed but its not good in God's sight unless it is done in faith. If its not done "in faith" then it is as "filty rags" to God.

But as I explained earlier (but it has gone ignored)...

There are two different forms of "righteousness" being discussed in Romans. One attained as if it were by works and the other as if it were through faith (cr: Rm. 9:30-32). The first is NOT possible to attain, but there is nothing said about the second being equally impossible for men to attain. Quite the opposite, Paul actually gives examples of those who did have faith and how that was credited to THEM as righteousness.

So, Romans 1-3:20 is proving that no one is righteous, no not even one in accordance with the righteousness attained through works, but go on to read verse 21, which says, "But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known."

Calvinist make the mistake of using passages such as Romans 3:10-11 to prove men are unable to attain righteousness through faith, when its quite clear that is not the "righteousness" Paul is even addressing

skan that verse is the same rightousness, it is saying that through Christ you are made righteous...the righteousness you could not achieve yourselves IS achievable through Christ. Verse 20 says no one will be justified in his sight by there own works but there is a righteousness from God that will make us justified in Christ

20For by works of the law no human being[c] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

We are justified, sanctified and glorified.

 

[Brother Bob]

"6": But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Seems to me He was talking to Israel the saved.

 

[Brother Bob]

If an unsaved man can do good that is good in the sight of the Lord then why do they need Christ. I have not dug any hole you make NO SENSE, you believe that man can do good and that good is of God than that must mean those men are Godly and if they are godly why do they need to believe in Christ at all.

Does not mean they are Godly men as in the following;


Here is why we need Jesus!

KJMatt.19

"18": He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

"19": Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

"20": The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

"21": Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

"22": But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


I can't believe someone would say to do good is not doing what God want you to do. It still takes faith, and the Blood of Christ to be saved.

"cleanse your hand ye sinners". Telling sinners to do good things and not bad.

 

[Brother Bob]

John, chapter 3

"19": And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (where is good deeds)?



KJMatt.07
16": Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

"17": Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

"18": A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

"19": Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

"20": Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

If the above were talking about doing good such as "honor father and mother, feed the poor then no one except the saved could do them. It is talking about the fruits of the "saved".

 

[Skandelon]

skan that verse is the same rightousness, it is saying that through Christ you are made righteous...the righteousness you could not achieve yourselves IS achievable through Christ.

Now, I agree that there is only one true righteousness and that it is achievable through Christ, but its the manner through which this righteousness is pursued that is being discussed. There is a righteousness being pursued through works and a righteousness (which granted could be "the same") that is being persued through faith. Read Romans 9:30-32.

Calvinists mistake is taking passages where Paul is seeking to show that righteousness pursued through works is unattainable and applying them to their belief that righteousness through faith is as equally unattainable. Romans 3:10-11 is an example and so is Romans 8.

So I would agree with you that there is really on one "righteousness" but there is more than ones means through which men believe this righteousness may be attained. Works and faith.

Proving that "works righteousness" is unattainable is not proof that "faith righteousness" is equally unattainable. Make sense?

 

[johnp.]

......but I thought DEAD people cannot do anything?

That's right webdog, they can't. EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins...

Hello Skandelon.

The first is NOT possible to attain, but there is nothing said about the second being equally impossible for men to attain.

LK 18:26 Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?" 27 Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

Does that not say otherwise?

john.

 

[Skandelon]

That's right webdog, they can't. EPH 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins...

Hello Skandelon.


LK 18:26 Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?" 27 Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

Does that not say otherwise?

john.

Scripture also says, "With faith all things are possible."

As to Lk 18, of course salvation is impossible for man without God. No one is debating that point. The question is whether or not we can respond in faith to what God has provided for our salvation.