A question for the Calvinists

[Tom Butler]

I think perhaps you don't understand. Calvinism teaches that man is in complete rebellion but that he experiences God's common grace so that he is not as bad as he could be.

This is important to the discussion. There are a lot of lost people who are pretty bad, and some not so bad, and some actually very nice, upstanding folks. So not everybody is as bad as they can be, but they all are as bad off as they can be.

 

[Tom Butler]

The year was 1947, I am nine years old. At age seven, my parents sent me to North Jackson (Tennessee) Baptist church because it was right around the corner, within walking distance. And a lot of my schoolmates went there, so I was right at home. I got involved in Sunday School, Training Union, Royal Ambassadors, Vacation Bible School. I loved it. I heard sermon after sermon, went to the two-week revivals. I was there as much as the pastor.

I heard sermons on hell, on heaven, on Jesus' death on the cross, on sin and sinfulness, on judgment. And you know what? Not a single time did I ever apply any of them to me. In fact, the first time I knew that I wasn't a Christian was when the department secretary filled out the enrollment card. On the blank beside the question, Christian?, she checked No.

On this particular Sunday morning, I was sitting with other kids in the church service. When the invitation started, it like, Pow, right in the kisser.
Suddenly the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to my sinfulness and my sin, and the punishment for those sins. It scared the daylights out of me. But then all those other past exhortations from the pastor started flooding into me. "Come to Christ." "Repent." "Trust Christ and be saved." Now, I knew what all that meant.

Down the aisle I went, weeping. The pastor, very perceptive, and very careful with a nine-year-old, began asking me questions. "Do you understand that you are a sinner? Do you understand the consequences of your sin? Do you repent of those sins? Do you trust Christ and him along to save you?

Until that moment, most of my answers would have been No. Mainly because I didn't know what that stuff meant. But the Holy Spirit had illuminated my mind and opened my understanding and applied all those sermons and Sunday school lessons to my heart.

All I know was that my heart was changed. All I know is that I was blind and now I saw.

 

[Pastor Larry]

First, I get a little tired of Calvinists saying nobody understands it.

Imagine how tired we get of people not understanding it.

 

[Winman]

Actually, arminianism does not always believe one can lose their salvation. In terms of comparison, the line is drawn through unconditional election. If you affirm it, you are a Calvinist, or Calvinistic. If you deny it, you are Arminian, or Arminianistic.

Obviously not, or you would believe what I believe, because I am a Bible believer. ... Obviously, you can see the uselessness of that designation in this discussion. Everyone claims to believe the Bible.

I htink perhaps you don't understand. Calvinism teaches that man is in complete rebellion but that he experiences God's common grace so that he is not as bad as he could be.

How do you know this?

Sounds like you were regenerated first, since there is no way you could have heard and understood and believed without it. At least that's what most Calvinists would say. As I said above, you may deny regeneration, but you still participate in it.
The same way anyone gets saved. By believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is pure circular reasoning (the part I highlighted). You start with the assumption that your doctrine is correct and interpret scripture to fit your pre-conceived idea.

I believed after I heard the gospel. How could I believe something I had never heard? And that is what the Bible clearly teaches.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The Bible teaches faith comes by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:14 shows that you cannot possibly believe unless you have heard. The Bible also shows that a man receives the Holy Spirit AFTER believeing.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

There it is, clear as a bell from scripture, a person receives the Holy Spirit after hearing and then believeing.

Now I challange you to show me one verse in the whole Bible that says the Holy Spirit regenerates first so that a man can believe.

 

[Winman]

Old Regular said:

Regeneration is a resurrection from the spiritual death.

John 5:25, KJV
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Where is regeneration shown there? It shows a person dead in sin can hear the word of God, and that those who sincerely listen and hear will be saved. The Bible always teaches that a man must first hear the gospel, then believe, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

John 5:25 disproves Calvinism because it shows those dead in sins can hear the word of God.

 

[zrs6v4]

I havent posted for awhile but Im home for the day so why not..

First Calvinists do beleive that the means by which the Spirit gives life (regenerate) is through the Word of God. So nobody will be born again aside from the Gospel of Christ. There are many different scenarios by which God has done this work.

I personally was raised in a Baptist church, since I was about 7 I remembered going to church. I remember about 11 getting scared of hell and being told that I am a sinner and Jesus is my Savior. I prayed to recieve Christ and was baptized then. To make a long story short I honestly dont think I was born again or saved at that time. When I was about 22 I was invited to church by my grandmother and I only did it to please her because she was so good to me. At this time I was big into partying and fullfilling all that was worldy with no sign of rebirth or love for God, but rather a worldly growth. I would have told you I was saved at that time and that to be saved you must ask Jesus into your heart and I also would have told you God was the most important thing in life. I was absolutely blind of who I was and what life was all about and the few things I knew about God didn't penitrate my heart. I was even thought of as a great kid and the parents were very proud of me. Anyway, the sermon the pastor preached that Sunday was used by God to begin a search and serious evaluation of myself. For the first time in my life I bought a bible and began to search it and pray honestly to God, seeing the real filthy rags that I was. I saw myself lower than a Jewish leader of Jesus day. I personally was very broken and it quickly came to a point in which I literally threw my life on Jesus for mercy because of this. I had a very dramatic conversion and I only knew the Gospel at a kindergarten level at best. All this happened within the span of a couple of weeks and I am not sure what point I actually was born again. I do know that My heart had been greatly changed in a way that I didnt understand, and for the first time hungered the things of God and so forth. There was a new part of me that I never really knew and all of my family and friends noticed without me telling them due to the overflows of the work of the Holy Spirit in me.

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

 

[Winman]

I havent posted for awhile but Im home for the day so why not..

First Calvinists do beleive that the means by which the Spirit gives life (regenerate) is through the Word of God. So nobody will be born again aside from the Gospel of Christ. There are many different scenarios by which God has done this work.

I personally was raised in a Baptist church, since I was about 7 I remembered going to church. I remember about 11 getting scared of hell and being told that I am a sinner and Jesus is my Savior. I prayed to recieve Christ and was baptized then. To make a long story short I honestly dont think I was born again or saved at that time. When I was about 22 I was invited to church by my grandmother and I only did it to please her because she was so good to me. At this time I was big into partying and fullfilling all that was worldy with no sign of rebirth or love for God, but rather a worldly growth. I would have told you I was saved at that time and that to be saved you must ask Jesus into your heart and I also would have told you God was the most important thing in life. I was absolutely blind of who I was and what life was all about and the few things I knew about God didn't penitrate my heart. I was even thought of as a great kid and the parents were very proud of me. Anyway, the sermon the pastor preached that Sunday was used by God to begin a search and serious evaluation of myself. For the first time in my life I bought a bible and began to search it and pray honestly to God, seeing the real filthy rags that I was. I saw myself lower than a Jewish leader of Jesus day. I personally was very broken and it quickly came to a point in which I literally threw my life on Jesus for mercy because of this. I had a very dramatic conversion and I only knew the Gospel at a kindergarten level at best. All this happened within the span of a couple of weeks and I am not sure what point I actually was born again. I do know that My heart had been greatly changed in a way that I didnt understand, and for the first time hungered the things of God and so forth. There was a new part of me that I never really knew and all of my family and friends noticed without me telling them due to the overflows of the work of the Holy Spirit in me.

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

That is a great testimony. And it is scriptural, because it shows you first heard the word of God and then trusted Christ. The scriptures say you receive the Spirit after believeing, not before. That said, I believe it is almost an instantaneous event.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This was before Jesus was crucified, yet many believed on him. It was not until the day of Pentacost that they received the Holy Spirit. There are several other examples in the book of Acts where a person first believed (after hearing the gospel) and later received the Holy Spirit. This is always the pattern shown in scripture.

As for John 3:8, what I personally believe is that Jesus is saying that you cannot see the wind, but you can feel, see, and hear the effects of it. You can feel it blow across your skin, you can see the trees being moved by the wind, you can hear a great wind, but yet you cannot actually see the wind itself. And this is the effect of the Holy Spirit. You cannot see it with your eyes, but you can see it's effect on those who have received the Spirit.

The word of God is spirit and truth. But you must receive the word into your heart. Even non-believers often hear the word of God, but they do not receive it. In fact, your very testimony confirms this.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You could be dying of thirst in the desert. I could offer you water to drink. But it will not do you any good unless you receive the water and drink it.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Having the water available will do you no good. You have to actually drink the water for it to work it's effect on you.

The perfect and simple picture of salvation is Rev. 3:20. Christ knocks on the door of every man's heart and bids entry. But a man must open the door of his own free and voluntary will and invite Jesus in. So you see, a man is called or bidden by the Holy Spirit from outside the man, but to receive life a man must open the door and receive Christ inwardly

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Calvinists can argue all day long that God regenerates a man first. The Bible shows a man must hear the word of God first, then receive Christ by believeing. It also shows that receiveing Christ is a decision of the will.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Hardsheller]

And Paul's Salvation experience? I'm sure you have an explanation of how Paul heard the Gospel and then decided to believe in Jesus and accept him into his heart.

 

[OldRegular]

Old Regular said:



Where is regeneration shown there? It shows a person dead in sin can hear the word of God, and that those who sincerely listen and hear will be saved. The Bible always teaches that a man must first hear the gospel, then believe, then is sealed with the Holy Spirit.

John 5:25 disproves Calvinism because it shows those dead in sins can hear the word of God.

What was it that Jesus Christ said? Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. [Matthew 22:29, KJV]

Another question: When Jesus Christ raised Lazarus from physical death what did He do? He spoke. In fact He spoke forcefully: He cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. [John 11:43, KJV] Now Lazarus was Physically Dead yet he responded to the voice of Jesus Christ. So is it with those who are Spiritually Dead. They hear the voice of Jesus Christ:

John 5:25, KJV
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

There is nothing on the above verse that indicates any action required on the one who is raised from Spiritual Death, Regenerated. This passage is totally consistent with the teaching of Jesus Christ on Regeneration or the New Birth in John 3:5-8:

5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Furthermore, John 5:25 is totally consistent with the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:4-7, NKJV:

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When we were dead in sin God made us alive.

Winman, you find inconsistency in Scripture when there is none. I would remind you [with emphasis] of what God told us in Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

[Winman]

Sure, it's right in the Bible.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Paul (Saul) heard the gospel from Stephen. And then he heard the words of Jesus himself on the road to Damascus. And notice the others "stopped" their ears. I believe they actually put their hands over their ears, that is how much they hated God's word. God did not make them deaf, they made themselves deaf.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul heard Stephen preach. Whether this convicted him or not we do not know for certain. It seems to have hardened his heart because after this he persecuted the church.

But when the Lord spoke to him on the road to Damascus Paul was convinced. Notice after hearing Jesus he asked, "Who art thou, Lord?" I cannot say for certain, but I believe Paul was fairly certain who was speaking to him. He knew it was God, for he called him "Lord". He wanted to know the Lord's name. And when Jesus gave Paul his name, Paul's next reaction was to ask what the Lord wanted him to do.

But Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit until days later.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Well, there you go again if you will receive it. Paul first heard the word of God, then believed, then received the Spirit.

 

[Winman]

What was it that Jesus Christ said? Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. [Matthew 22:29, KJV]

Another question: When Jesus Christ raised Lazarus from physical death what did He do? He spoke. In fact He spoke forcefully: He cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. [John 11:43, KJV] Now Lazarus was Physically Dead yet he responded to the voice of Jesus Christ. So is it with those who are Spiritually Dead. They hear the voice of Jesus Christ:

John 5:25, KJV
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

There is nothing on the above verse that indicates any action required on the one who is raised from Spiritual Death, Regenerated. This passage is totally consistent with the teaching of Jesus Christ on Regeneration or the New Birth in John 3:5-8:

5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Furthermore, John 5:25 is totally consistent with the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:4-7, NKJV:

4. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When we were dead in sin God made us alive.

Winman, you find inconsistency in Scripture when there is none. I would remind you [with emphasis] of what God told us in Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

You Calvinist's love to skip over Ephesians chapter 1 and go right to chapter 2 to teach a falsehood. Try reading chapter 1 and you will see that a person first hears the gospel, then believes, then receives the Spirit. I must have presented this verse 50 times, but you folks are very stubborn.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

OK, real slow now, this verse says that they trusted AFTER they heard the word of truth, the gospel. So they believed AFTER hearing the gospel.

Got that?

OK, now AFTER believeing they were sealed with the Spriit.

Got that?

And I've showed another verse that shows the same thing.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

OK, how does this verse teach someone receives the Spirit. Go slow, don't want to lose you here. It says the HEARING of faith. Got that? Hearing. Now what do you suppose that means? I'll tell you since you have difficulty comprehending this. They heard the gospel.

You guys are just as stubborn as Pharaoh. You cannot just pick verses you like.

And John 5:25 proves that those dead in sin can hear the word of God. Got that? HEAR.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is not talking about the resurrection, because Jesus said the hour "now is". And further down in verse 28 he makes a clear distinction, because he does not say "now is" and also says "all that are in the graves".

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

So verse 25 and verse 28 are not saying the same thing. Verse 25 is showing that living men who are unsaved can hear the word of God. Verse 28 is speaking of the future resurrection.

And I don't usually resort to scholars, but Matthew Henry agrees with this in his commentary on this chapter.

First, A resurrection that now is (v. 29), a resurrection from the death of sin to the life of righteousness, by the power of Christ’s grace. The hour is coming, and now is. It is a resurrection begun already, and further to be carried on, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God. This is plainly distinguished from that in v. 28, which speaks of the resurrection at the end of time.

I didn't need Matthew Henry, I understood it plainly. I wrote that for your benefit.

So, the spritually dead can hear the word of God, and if they choose to hear and believe they will be made alive. Of course, I am sure you will ignore this as you do all the other scriptures I have presented that clearly show your doctrine false.

 

[Hardsheller]

Perhaps the question that needs to be asked to bring this whole discussion into focus is this......

"What Causes a person to believe in Jesus Christ?"

Is it an external or an internal cause?

Calvinists believe it is an external cause - Monergistic - God changes (regenerates) the sinner's heart so that the person who has consistently rejected Christ now receives Christ because he cannot do otherwise. This is I believe an instantaneous event.

Non-Calvinists believe it is a partially internal cause - Synergistic - Lost Man Hears the Gospel, The Holy Spirit Convicts of Sin - and the Sinner then "makes a decision to" receive Christ. It may or not be "instantaneous". God and a person are involved together in a cooperative (synergistic) effort to effect salvation in that person's life and Christ can be refused at any point right up until the person's decision for Christ is made.

 

[OldRegular]

Perhaps the question that needs to be asked to bring this whole discussion into focus is this......

"What Causes a person to believe in Jesus Christ?"

Is it an external or an internal cause?

Calvinists believe it is an external cause - Monergistic - God changes (regenerates) the sinner's heart so that the person who has consistently rejected Christ now receives Christ because he cannot do otherwise. This is I believe an instantaneous event.

Non-Calvinists believe it is a partially internal cause - Synergistic - Lost Man Hears the Gospel, The Holy Spirit Convicts of Sin - and the Sinner then "makes a decision to" receive Christ. It may or not be "instantaneous". God and a person are involved together in a cooperative (synergistic) effort to effect salvation in that person's life and Christ can be refused at any point right up until the person's decision for Christ is made.

Can I assume that non-Calvinists then believe that, in the final analysis, their salvation is not an act of God but of man.

 

[Jarthur001]

You Calvinist's love to skip over Ephesians chapter 1 and go right to chapter 2 to teach a falsehood. Try reading chapter 1 and you will see that a person first hears the gospel, then believes, then receives the Spirit. I must have presented this verse 50 times, but you folks are very stubborn.

Oh brothers :sleep:

Like we MUST believe every word you say. For you are gospel? maybe you have not read the "50" replies or more. Does this make you stubborn? Did you just .."SKIP" over the replies?

Maybe Calvinist should read chapter 1? I see...so you think we have not. :tonofbricks:

Got that?

OK, now AFTER believeing they were sealed with the Spriit.

Got that?

Is it ok if I just call you master teacher? Give me a break.

I think I GOT IT.

You guys are just as stubborn as Pharaoh. You cannot just pick verses you like

.
Who harden his heart to God. So what are you saying about Calvinist?
I think you need to pipe down a bit and not think of yourself on such a high plan. Maybe you need to take a break from posting.

clearly show your doctrine false.

Maybe you didn't know this but matt henry was a Calvinist.

:laugh:

 

[Winman]

Can I assume that non-Calvinists then believe that, in the final analysis, their salvation is not an act of God but of man.

Why not? Your whole doctrine is based on assumptions.

One more time, Rev 3:20

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



1) OK, at the beginning, where is Jesus, on the inside or on the outside?

2) Does Jesus knock on the door and call to that person inside?

3) To how many men is this offered?

4) Who opens the door?

5) Where does Jesus go when the door is opened, outside or inside?

6) Who is said to overcome in verse 21?

7) How many men have ears to hear?

You guys are just plain stubborn. This is not difficult to understand, you must be willfully ignorant to misunderstand these scriptures.

 

[Hardsheller]

Can I assume that non-Calvinists then believe that, in the final analysis, their salvation is not an act of God but of man.

Assumptions are always "real" in the mind of those who assume. I prefer to look at it this way. As you move across the spectrum of salvation theology - from High Calvinism to Rank Pelagianism the emphasis shifts away from God gradually toward man.

 

[Winman]

Maybe Calvinist should read chapter 1? I see...so you think we have not.

Those that teach the Holy Spirit regenrates a man to believe obviously have not, for Eph 1:13 shows a man receives the Spirit after believeing.

Who harden his heart to God. So what are you saying about Calvinist?
I think you need to pipe down a bit and not think of yourself on such a high plan. Maybe you need to take a break from posting.

I am saying that in my opinion many Calvinists have indeed hardened their hearts and closed their eyes willingly to the scriptures. When you insist in doctrine that is clearly contradicted by scripture, what other possibility is there? And I do not think of myself highly, but I do get frustrated with those who are stubborn and obstinate.

Maybe you didn't know this but matt henry was a Calvinist.

Well if he was, he did not believe in Total Depravity or Inability, because he says John 5:25 teaches that the unsaved man can hear and respond to God's word. Go to his commentary and see for yourself.

 

[webdog]

Assumptions are always "real" in the mind of those who assume. I prefer to look at it this way. As you move across the spectrum of salvation theology - from High Calvinism to Rank Pelagianism the emphasis shifts away from God gradually toward man.

Wrong......

 

[Hardsheller]

Wrong......

So the Church of Christ is right?

 

[webdog]

So the Church of Christ is right?

How did you get that from my reply? You basically said that only calvinists believe salvation is all God, and I disagreed.