A question for the Calvinists

[Jarthur001]

Those that teach the Holy Spirit regenrates a man to believe obviously have not, for Eph 1:13 shows a man receives the Spirit after believeing.

All Calvinist believe that faith comes by hearing, so this verse does not prove you r point now does it? Salvation has many elements all coming from the work of God. Sealing is but one part of Holy Spirits work. Drawing is also part of Holy Spirits work. The new birth, again part of the picture.

in "order of salvation" it all comes down to this. Can man come to God on his own, or must God do something in man to cause him to come? Now I too have given clear scripture for what I believe, yet you say it is not Bible based. You need to drop the hate you have for Calvinist, and maybe you would see we do indeed believe the Bible.

I am saying that in my opinion....

Well...you are saying its your opinion now. But you have been posting like you know so much better and we calvinist are just a bunch of fools that can NOT see the truth. And when you do this, you have said most all the Hymn writers are fools. You have also removed many top theologians from the church. With the words you chose in your hate of others that love the Lord and believe the Bible, it is my guess you would just as soon burn the Calvinist at the stack as they use to do many years ago. Yes...that is my opinion of you.

....many Calvinists have indeed hardened their hearts

Now you have changed it to MANY. Which is STILL a picture of the non-believer. So now only some Calvinist are have hardened their hearts. Again, what are you saying about Calvinist?

and closed their eyes willingly to the scriptures.

Why would you say such a thing? Do we not post verses too? Yes we disagree, but why say we do not believe the Bible?

When you insist in doctrine that is clearly contradicted by scripture,

If that is the case, than we are anti-Christ. Is that how you view us? Do you not think we study the Bible? Do you not think we would change our view if we felt that Calvinism was not supported by Scripture? Why is it that you feel as if you know so much more that those you hate?

what other possibility is there?

Well, for starters maybe we see Calvinism clearly in Scripture.

And I do not think of myself highly,

:sleep::sleep:

but I do get frustrated with those who are stubborn and obstinate

.

Well....are you stubborn? How many times have other "showed you the truth of Calvinism" BASED ON THE BIBLE?????????????????????????????

Well if he was, he did not believe in Total Depravity or Inability, because he says John 5:25 teaches that the unsaved man can hear and respond to God's word. Go to his commentary and see for yourself.

Please don't base your views on a person only on one line

 

[Jarthur001]

12.............. I will answer you,
for God is greater than man.

13Why do you contend against him,
saying, 'He will answer none of man’s words'?

14For God speaks in one way,
and in two, though man does not perceive it.

15In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men,
while they slumber on their beds,

16then he opens the ears of men
and terrifies them with warnings,

17that he may turn man aside from his deed
and conceal pride from a man;

18he keeps back his soul from the pit,
his life from perishing by the sword.

 

[Darrenss1]

Can I assume that non-Calvinists then believe that, in the final analysis, their salvation is not an act of God but of man.

Funny how Calvinists scream how non Cal's don't understand their position and they need to study more yet you Calvinist refuse to accept that non Calvinism or Arminianism clearly teaches that salvation is all of God. God has always been the initiator always was and always will be.

And I was called a blasphemer.... Seriously.

:BangHead:

Darren

 

[Pastor Larry]

That is pure circular reasoning (the part I highlighted). You start with the assumption that your doctrine is correct and interpret scripture to fit your pre-conceived idea.

Actually, that's not circular reasoning by definition or by practice. My position is based on biblical revelation.

I believed after I heard the gospel. How could I believe something I had never heard? And that is what the Bible clearly teaches.

I agree. So does Calvinism.

The Bible teaches faith comes by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:14 shows that you cannot possibly believe unless you have heard. The Bible also shows that a man receives the Holy Spirit AFTER believeing.

I agree. So does Calvinism.

There it is, clear as a bell from scripture, a person receives the Holy Spirit after hearing and then believeing.

I agree. So does Calvinism.

Now I challange you to show me one verse in the whole Bible that says the Holy Spirit regenerates first so that a man can believe.

Are you willing to believe it? Several weeks ago, I addressed this very point and gave you a link to study. I imagine you haven't done that. You want easy proof texts. You don't want to seriously study the Bible, it doesn't seem.

The fact is that regeneration precediing faith is a theological construct based on the whole teaching of Scripture. It is not based on pulling a verse out of context here or there.

But if you answer what a "natural man" is in 1 Cor 2:14 (and answer it based on 1 Cor 2:14, not based on anything else), then you will be on your way to understanding it. You can figure out what it means to be "dead in trespasses and sins" in Eph 2. There are numerous other passages that indicate that there is a sovereign, unilateral, and effectual work of God on the elect that brings them to salvation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Funny how Calvinists scream how non Cal's don't understand their position and they need to study more yet you Calvinist refuse to accept that non Calvinism or Arminianism clearly teaches that salvation is all of God. God has always been the initiator always was and always will be.

You need to understand some key distinctions. Arminianism does teach, in a sense, that salvation is all of God. But it teaches a prevenient grace that enables all men to respond, and then leaves the final choice up to the individual. Calvinism teaches that grace is no prevenient, but effectual in salvation. In other words, it doesn't just enable, it ensures.

You say that Arminianism says that God is the initiator. That is true. But the problem is that that is where Arminianism leaves it. The Bible takes it farther than that, that God does more than just initiate. He also ensures its completion.

 

[Hardsheller]

How did you get that from my reply? You basically said that only calvinists believe salvation is all God, and I disagreed.

No I did not basically say that only Calvinists believe salvation is all God. You made that assumption.

 

[Rippon]

No I did not basically say that only Calvinists believe salvation is all God. You made that assumption.

WD has the tendency to make a lot of assumptions in his many posts. BTW, did you know his favorite word is "Strawman"? He is far and away the leader in the usage of that term here on the BB.

 

[Darrenss1]

You say that Arminianism says that God is the initiator. That is true. But the problem is that that is where Arminianism leaves it. The Bible takes it farther than that, that God does more than just initiate. He also ensures its completion.

And I'm sure I've read and agree to every scripture the Calvinist take for their interpretation and find Calvinism must be read into the text to make that what Calvinist say, is that necessary further step, yet Calvinism bybasses man's responses and removes it from the picture. God draws the all, man can either reject that or accept and believe. Simple as that.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

BTW, did you know his favorite word is "Strawman"? He is far and away the leader in the usage of that term here on the BB.

Have you considered that maybe you could do more for your school of theology if you showed more respect towards other christians?? Your choice.

:1_grouphug:

Darren

 

[Rippon]

Have you considered that maybe you could do more for your school of theology if you showed more respect towards other christians?? Your choice.

Just pointing out a fact. It's not a lie.

And I suppose you Sir, have been very nice with those on the Calvinistic side of the bench here? Please.

 

[Rippon]

And I'm sure I've read and agree to every scripture the Calvinist take for their interpretation and find Calvinism must be read into the text to make that what Calvinist say...

No, not read into. Just a plain reading of the text and comparison with related texts does the trick.

 

[Darrenss1]

Just a plain reading of the text and comparison with related texts does the trick.

You just described non Calvinism from scripture, congratulations!! :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

 

[OldRegular]

Funny how Calvinists scream how non Cal's don't understand their position and they need to study more yet you Calvinist refuse to accept that non Calvinism or Arminianism clearly teaches that salvation is all of God. God has always been the initiator always was and always will be.

And I was called a blasphemer.... Seriously.

:BangHead:

Darren

But you claim the final and necessary determination is yours making you responsible for your salvation

 

[OldRegular]

You Calvinist's love to skip over Ephesians chapter 1 and go right to chapter 2 to teach a falsehood. Try reading chapter 1 and you will see that a person first hears the gospel, then believes, then receives the Spirit. I must have presented this verse 50 times, but you folks are very stubborn.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

OK, real slow now, this verse says that they trusted AFTER they heard the word of truth, the gospel. So they believed AFTER hearing the gospel.

Got that?

OK, now AFTER believeing they were sealed with the Spriit.

Got that?

And I've showed another verse that shows the same thing.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

OK, how does this verse teach someone receives the Spirit. Go slow, don't want to lose you here. It says the HEARING of faith. Got that? Hearing. Now what do you suppose that means? I'll tell you since you have difficulty comprehending this. They heard the gospel.

You guys are just as stubborn as Pharaoh. You cannot just pick verses you like.

And John 5:25 proves that those dead in sin can hear the word of God. Got that? HEAR.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This is not talking about the resurrection, because Jesus said the hour "now is". And further down in verse 28 he makes a clear distinction, because he does not say "now is" and also says "all that are in the graves".

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

So verse 25 and verse 28 are not saying the same thing. Verse 25 is showing that living men who are unsaved can hear the word of God. Verse 28 is speaking of the future resurrection.

And I don't usually resort to scholars, but Matthew Henry agrees with this in his commentary on this chapter.



I didn't need Matthew Henry, I understood it plainly. I wrote that for your benefit.

So, the spritually dead can hear the word of God, and if they choose to hear and believe they will be made alive. Of course, I am sure you will ignore this as you do all the other scriptures I have presented that clearly show your doctrine false.

Winman,

I repeat, you find inconsistency in Scripture when there is none. I would remind you again [with emphasis] of what God told us in Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Incidentally your last statement above is just pure slop; not worthy to be posted on a Christian Forum.

 

[Pastor Larry]

And I'm sure I've read and agree to every scripture the Calvinist take for their interpretation and find Calvinism must be read into the text to make that what Calvinist say

I am sure you haven't. You may have read the verses, but you have not found that Calvinism must be read into the text in every one of them.

yet Calvinism bybasses man's responses and removes it from the picture.

Can you show any Calvinist who does this? Quote someone here who is a CAlvinist, who quote some one that we can read somewhere. Please, show us a Calvinist who bypasses man's response. I have never seen one. The one's that do (and there are some here) usually don't call themselves Calvinists.

 

[Darrenss1]

I am sure you haven't. You may have read the verses, but you have not found that Calvinism must be read into the text in every one of them.

Regeneration preceding salvation for 1.

Can you show any Calvinist who does this? Quote someone here who is a CAlvinist, who quote some one that we can read somewhere. Please, show us a Calvinist who bypasses man's response. I have never seen one. The one's that do (and there are some here) usually don't call themselves Calvinists.

Certainly, Calvinist claim man can only "respond" positively to God once they are regenerated/elected. By saying response I was not universally implying an omission of any response, this of course is observed in the "T.U.L.I" of tulip, where man's response to God is generally locked in depending on what side of regeneration they are on.

Darren

 

[Pastor Larry]

Regeneration preceding salvation for 1.

For 1 what? That's not read into Scriptures. It is deduced from them. If you understand Calvinism, then you would know that. You don't have to agree with it (I don't). But I know why they believe it. I understand the scriptural basis for it.

Certainly, Calvinist claim man can only "respond" positively to God once they are regenerated/elected. By saying response I was not universally implying an omission of any response, this of course is observed in the "T.U.L.I" of tulip, where man's response to God is generally locked in depending on what side of regeneration they are on.

That's a different claim than you made. The Bible teaches that man's choices are made willingly, regardless of which side of regeneration they are on. Eph 2:1-3 makes it clear that unbelievers are dead willingly ... they live according to their lusts. They do not desire to turn to God. That would contradict that passage.

I think you, like many, are too hung up on a system rather than looking at what the Bible says. When the Bible is looked at apart from the presuppositions, Calvinism is almost certainly the inevitable outcome. It is extremely difficult to come to any other conclusion with out violating the text of Scripture.

 

[Darrenss1]

For 1 what?

For 1 issue Calvinist read into the text.

That's not read into Scriptures. It is deduced from them. If you understand Calvinism, then you would know that.

Meaning the same thing.

That's a different claim than you made. The Bible teaches that man's choices are made willingly, regardless of which side of regeneration they are on. Eph 2:1-3 makes it clear that unbelievers are dead willingly ... they live according to their lusts. They do not desire to turn to God. That would contradict that passage.

However God does not regenerate lost sinners to believe in Him. In our countries almost everyone has heard of Christ or preaching of the gospel. God has enabled (drawn) them to come to Him, some do but others do not, that is their own will, to either resist God or to repent/believe. In the Old Testament when God intervened men were able to respond to God and believe Him or reject Him, God did not lock their will for them.

I think you, like many, are too hung up on a system rather than looking at what the Bible says. When the Bible is looked at apart from the presuppositions, Calvinism is almost certainly the inevitable outcome. It is extremely difficult to come to any other conclusion with out violating the text of Scripture.

In other words, if we have no system and just read the bible we'll find that Calvinism is the only interpretation the bible supports. Lame, very lame.

Darren

 

[OldRegular]

Why not? Your whole doctrine is based on assumptions.

One more time, Rev 3:20

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.



1) OK, at the beginning, where is Jesus, on the inside or on the outside?

2) Does Jesus knock on the door and call to that person inside?

3) To how many men is this offered?

4) Who opens the door?

5) Where does Jesus go when the door is opened, outside or inside?

6) Who is said to overcome in verse 21?

7) How many men have ears to hear?

You guys are just plain stubborn. This is not difficult to understand, you must be willfully ignorant to misunderstand these scriptures.

You are totally misinterpreting that passage of Scripture. You are taking the passage out of context and using it to indicate that the Saviour is knocking at the door of the sinner’s heart. That is nonsense! This passage is relevant to the seven churches to which John had written letters.

Jesus Christ follows His counsel to the true believers at Laodicea and all churches, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, with the promise, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. This promise is only to the regenerate members of the churches. If they repent following chastening, rouse themselves from their false contentment or their sins, and return to their ‘first love’ then He will restore that fellowship that has been broken, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If they do not repent but continue in their sin then the judgment of God will come, even a temporal judgment on the believer [Hebrews 10:29,30].

What is the promise to those who suffer persecution, who persevere, who overcome,who confess that they are strangers and pilgrims on the earth [Hebrews 11:13]. The Lord tells the Church the total number of the redeemed:

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The Apostle Paul writes as follows:

2 Timothy 4:8, KJV
8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The letters to the churches conclude: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Hardsheller]

You are totally misinterpreting that passage of Scripture. You are taking the passage out of context and using it to indicate that the Saviour is knocking at the door of the sinner’s heart. That is nonsense! This passage is relevant to the seven churches to which John had written letters.

Jesus Christ follows His counsel to the true believers at Laodicea and all churches, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, with the promise, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. This promise is only to the regenerate members of the churches. If they repent following chastening, rouse themselves from their false contentment or their sins, and return to their ‘first love’ then He will restore that fellowship that has been broken, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If they do not repent but continue in their sin then the judgment of God will come, even a temporal judgment on the believer [Hebrews 10:29,30].

What is the promise to those who suffer persecution, who persevere, who overcome,who confess that they are strangers and pilgrims on the earth [Hebrews 11:13]. The Lord tells the Church the total number of the redeemed:

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The Apostle Paul writes as follows:

2 Timothy 4:8, KJV
8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The letters to the churches conclude: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Thanks for posting this. I was wanting to point this out and you beat me to the punch.

I'm always amazed at how folks misinterpret this passage of scripture.

And we Calvinists are accused of twisting scripture to fit our doctrines!!