A question for the Calvinists

[Winman]

Calvinists under no circumstances can believe that a man plays a part in his own salvation. It is a passive role, but it is a role. God is not offended by it in the scriptures, but Calvinists are.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

What? God rewards a man that diligently seeks him? This is anathema to a Calvinist. But the scriptures say you must must believe this very thing to please God.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Here Peter tells men to save themselves.

2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul prays and beseeches men to be reconciled to God.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James tells a man to draw nigh to God and God will in return draw nigh to him.

2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The Lord tells men to come out of idolatry and he will receive them and he will be their Father.

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

This verse says take heed unto "thyself" and the doctine, and continue in them, for in doing this a person shall not only save himself, but also those that hear them.

Wow, save yourselves, be reconciled, draw nigh, come out, diligently seek, take heed...

The false teaching that a man plays no part in his salvation is not scriptural. There are many scriptures where God himself demands action from a man. God is not offended by it, God commands men to do so. It is only the false teaching of Calvinism that teaches that a man plays no role in his salvation.

 

[Rippon]

Faith isn't a gift as in something that must be placed into man.

I do believe that faith is a gift in that man would never have faith if it had not been for God bringing man to it.

Faith is something that must be willingly given

Given by God, but it's not a gift?

but no man can bring 'himself' to this point, God must intervene in order that man might come to such a place.

Very confusing view.

 

[Darrenss1]

I said:
"However God does not regenerate lost sinners to believe in Him."

How do you know?

God has never done so not from the time of Adam. Its not until the new covenant that God puts in the heart of flesh and God's laws into the hearts of men. So Calvinism has a problem in dealing with how OT saints came to believe in God despite the fact that they were not regenerated, yet they were able to believe God, once God intervened.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Well, you are asking what the biblical basis is for Calvinism. ....When you say that reading into the text and deducing from the text are "the same thing," you are either unaware of logical argument or not telling the truth. They are not the same.

Nop I didn't ask what the biblical basis is for Calvinism was, I said Calvinism must be read into the text to assume the bible teaches Calvinism. I gave regeneration preceding faith as an example. You said no its not read it's deduced. I said that's meaning same thing, or more appropriately you are having the same meaning by your use of the word deduced as I said with read into. You claimed I didn't know how to study, how absurd. Calvinism is an systematic interpretation of the bible simple as that.

What of them? What have they studied? And do they say, "I don't see any arguments for Calvinism in the Bible" or do they say, "I see the arguments and I find them flawed"? Those are two different responses.

If your appeal of lack of study is logically reasoning out the reason why a christian is not a Calvinist then your reasoning is flawed, since not all well read christians are Calvinist.

When you say that Calvinism reads regeneration preceding faith into the text, you are either unaware of their arguments or your are not telling the truth. The argument is there. I disagree with it as they state it. But I know what it is. It is not read into the text.

I know the arguments, yes I disagree with them yet the reality is, regeneration preceding faith is read (deduced, assumed) into the text on the part of the Calvinist.

My conclusion is that you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Yeah right. Is that a logical argument?

Darren

 

[zrs6v4]

Calvinists under no circumstances can believe that a man plays a part in his own salvation. It is a passive role, but it is a role. God is not offended by it in the scriptures, but Calvinists are.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

What? God rewards a man that diligently seeks him? This is anathema to a Calvinist. But the scriptures say you must must believe this very thing to please God.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Here Peter tells men to save themselves.

2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul prays and beseeches men to be reconciled to God.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

James tells a man to draw nigh to God and God will in return draw nigh to him.

2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The Lord tells men to come out of idolatry and he will receive them and he will be their Father.

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

This verse says take heed unto "thyself" and the doctine, and continue in them, for in doing this a person shall not only save himself, but also those that hear them.

Wow, save yourselves, be reconciled, draw nigh, come out, diligently seek, take heed...

The false teaching that a man plays no part in his salvation is not scriptural. There are many scriptures where God himself demands action from a man. God is not offended by it, God commands men to do so. It is only the false teaching of Calvinism that teaches that a man plays no role in his salvation.

combine all you just said with this quote by Paul?

"as it is written: no one is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

 

[Darrenss1]

combine all you just said with this statement by Paul?

"as it is written: no one is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Man would not respond unless God had first drawn Him, the idea that man without any intervention from God is going to decide to seek after God is completely false.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Darren

 

[Winman]

Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Want faith? Then read the scriptures and believe them. Any man who has eyes to read the scriptures, or ears to hear the preaching of the scriptures can have faith. Or even if you can read braille, no man is excluded.

God gives many promises in the Bible. You can chose to believe them or not. The Bible clearly makes a man responsible for his own faith.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Here God clearly promises to give wisdom to any who lack it. It also shows that God is happy to give this good gift to any man who desires it.

That is the promise. Now, you have to ask yourself, do you really believe God will keep his promise and give you wisdom if you ask, or will God not keep his word?

But see verse 6, a man is held responsible by God to believe this promise. If you doubt God (which is an insult, calling him a liar), do not think for one second God will give this wisdom to you.

Faith is not a supernatural force, but you could not have faith in Christ without the scriptures. You would have never heard of Christ without the scriptures, and you would have never imagined him on your own. So if you know of Christ, God gets 100% of the credit.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

It is not faith that saves you. Jesus Christ himself through the Holy Spirit saves you. When a man believes the scriptures and in his heart calls out for the forgiveness and salvation Jesus offers, it is then that Jesus through the Holy Spirit literally enters you and quickens you.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[zrs6v4]

Man would not respond unless God had first drawn Him, the idea that man without any intervention from God is going to decide to seek after God is completely false.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Darren

Im not sure if you totally agree or not, but my point was that the only reason anyone would truly seek and find God is that God has sought out and found them.

 

[Darrenss1]

Im not sure if you totally agree or not, but my point was that the only reason anyone would truly seek and find God is that God has sought out and found them.

Yes agreed, if you're saying what I think you are saying. :smilewinkgrin:

God's intervention breaks the pattern of man's rebellion. I believe the bible teaches that once God intervenes man can continue on in rebellion and pride (all being sinners) or they can turn to God in faith and enter into the New Covenant, be saved...etc

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

God's intervention breaks the pattern of man's rebellion. I believe the bible teaches that once God intervenes man can continue on in rebellion and pride (all being sinners) or they can turn to God in faith and enter into the New Covenant, be saved...etc
Darren

Let me just throw this little cameo in here, unsaved man without God isn't going to know how to be saved, what the real precise truth of the universe is, they don't realise they are sinners under God's wrath and judgment, they certainly wouldn't think they need to be saved or seek the true God. The same goes for these false religions, they don't have the truth but lies (from the devil), in order for them to be saved they need to hear the gospel and allow God to speak the truths into their hearts so God can reveal Himself to them and through Christ they can be saved.

So the idea that man could come to God or seek God on their little lonesome without God's first intervening or interacting with them is a complete writeoff, it fails on every front. That is one reason the bible is so important today and God has made sure to preserve His word through the ages, so mankind can know God, hear it, read it and respond as God reveals Himself to them.

Darren

 

[Pastor Larry]

God has never done so not from the time of Adam. Its not until the new covenant that God puts in the heart of flesh and God's laws into the hearts of men. So Calvinism has a problem in dealing with how OT saints came to believe in God despite the fact that they were not regenerated, yet they were able to believe God, once God intervened.

OT saints were regenerated. How else would they have spiritual life? The NC was not a new thing; the "new" thing about the new covenant was the widespread nature of it ... All of Israel will be affected by it.

I gave regeneration preceding faith as an example. You said no its not read it's deduced. I said that's meaning same thing, or more appropriately you are having the same meaning by your use of the word deduced as I said with read into.

i don't mean by "deduce" what you mean by "read into." They do not mean the same thing in any respect. If you meant "deduce" then you should have said so.

You claimed I didn't know how to study, how absurd.

I am not sure about that. If you don't know the difference between reading something in and the process of deduction, it would be very hard to study.

Calvinism is an systematic interpretation of the bible simple as that.

Of course. So are all the alternatives.

If your appeal of lack of study is logically reasoning out the reason why a christian is not a Calvinist then your reasoning is flawed, since not all well read christians are Calvinist.

You obviously missed the point. The point is not that you should be a Calvinist. the point is that to reject it, you should understand what you are rejecting. You do not seem to understand what you are so against.

I know the arguments

Then act like it.

the reality is, regeneration preceding faith is read (deduced, assumed) into the text on the part of the Calvinist.

First, "read into" is not the same things as "deduced" and neither is the same things as "assumed." Please use words correctly. Second, it is not read into the text. It is deduced from it. There are certain things that the Bible says that leads to conclusions. That is a deduction.

Yeah right. Is that a logical argument?

No, it is a deduction based on what you have said here.

 

[zrs6v4]

Darrenss1- I agree with you for the most part, and men reject God all day everyday. I would say that when God decides to save someone he will do it in a way that they wont reject. This is similar to the effectual call of God that Calvinists hold.

Do you believe God is calling all men to Himself, for salvation? (which is where we may see things differently)

what about those who never hear the Gospel in far out countries?

 

[Darrenss1]

OT saints were regenerated. How else would they have spiritual life?

Were they regenerated before they believed? This is just a merry go round of circular reasoning, where do you get the clear scripture that OT SAINTS were in fact regenerated before they believed?

Acccording to Eze 11:19, 36:26; Jer 31:31-33??

Darren

 

[Hardsheller]

In regards to Pelagianism, I agree...however that phrase seems to allude to the fact that calvinism has it right, and any other view takes the emphasis away from God...particularly the last sentence in your post.

Of course I believe that I have it right as do you and all the rest of us on this board! :laugh:

 

[Pastor Larry]

Were they regenerated before they believed? This is just a merry go round of circular reasoning, where do you get the clear scripture that OT SAINTS were in fact regenerated before they believed?

How do you explain them coming to God and having eternal life? Even if you do not believe that regeneration precedes faith, you still have to explain how they have eternal life if not regenerated?

The proof texting you are demanding is an inadequate way to study the Bible. Theology has to be understood. The nature of man as dead in trespasses and sins, and continually and willfully rejecting God did not suddenly creep up in the NT. It was the same in the OT. Therefore, there must be regeneration.

 

[Darrenss1]

The proof texting you are demanding is an inadequate way to study the Bible. Theology has to be understood. The nature of man as dead in trespasses and sins, and continually and willfully rejecting God did not suddenly creep up in the NT. It was the same in the OT. Therefore, there must be regeneration.

So therefore as a Calvinist you read regeneration preceding faith back also into the OT. The simple matter was the OT saints never had the benefits of the New Covenant if you attempt to read the spirituality of christianity into the OT faith life you will be doing so in light of the fact that the NC was unique to the post resurrection age.

I asked you very specific question about the prophecies spoken of that were FOR the NC, you say that's not the way to read things? So can you explain it or not?

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

..you still have to explain how they have eternal life if not regenerated?

They believed God, the just shall live by faith. The purpose of election stands by faith. The new birth is for the New Covenant.

Darren

 

[zrs6v4]

They believed God, the just shall live by faith. The purpose of election stands by faith. The new birth is for the New Covenant.

Darren

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus why did he expect Him to understand something that wasn't in existence yet? I guess my big question is why do you think regeneration is only of the New Covenant?

 

[Pastor Larry]

So therefore as a Calvinist you read regeneration preceding faith back also into the OT.

I don't even believe regeneration precedes faith, so I certainly don't "read it back."

The simple matter was the OT saints never had the benefits of the New Covenant if you attempt to read the spirituality of christianity into the OT faith life you will be doing so in light of the fact that the NC was unique to the post resurrection age.

The NC is actually unique to the millennial age. Regeneration is not tied only to the NC.

I asked you very specific question about the prophecies spoken of that were FOR the NC, you say that's not the way to read things? So can you explain it or not?

Yes, I can explain it. I did. Not sure what your question is now. I will try to clarify if you will ask me your question.

They believed God, the just shall live by faith.

Isn't that regeneration? What kind of life was it?

[qutoe]The purpose of election stands by faith.[/quote]Which verse are you referring to here?

The new birth is for the New Covenant.

Not only. You are saying that no one in the OT had eternal life. But we know that isn't true. Furthermore, Jesus expected Nicodemus to know about regeneration because he was a teacher of the OT.

So I think you fail on all counts.

 

[Darrenss1]

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus why did he expect Him to understand something that wasn't in existence yet? I guess my big question is why do you think regeneration is only of the New Covenant?

The Old Covenant did not bring any inward change, the scriptures I referred to were for the future of its own time. Nicodemus should have known the scriptures that's why; otherwise which particular section of the law would Jesus be appealing to Nicodemus from being a teacher of Israel that Nicodemus should have known? It must of already been written, so which section of the law was Jesus referring to?

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Eze 11:19, 36:26

Again I ask what writing in the OT for the OT saints proves Nicodemus should have known about regeneration preceding faith? Unless it was a prophetic scripture that Nicodemus was to know about, otherwise which was it? You might prove regeneration for those whom DO believe for the NT (thats a given we all agree on) but not regeneration for those that are unbelievers yet to believe OT or NT.

Darren