A question for the Calvinists

Given by God, but it's not a gift?

Very confusing view.

 

I said:
"However God does not regenerate lost sinners to believe in Him."

God has never done so not from the time of Adam. Its not until the new covenant that God puts in the heart of flesh and God's laws into the hearts of men. So Calvinism has a problem in dealing with how OT saints came to believe in God despite the fact that they were not regenerated, yet they were able to believe God, once God intervened.

Darren

 

Nop I didn't ask what the biblical basis is for Calvinism was, I said Calvinism must be read into the text to assume the bible teaches Calvinism. I gave regeneration preceding faith as an example. You said no its not read it's deduced. I said that's meaning same thing, or more appropriately you are having the same meaning by your use of the word deduced as I said with read into. You claimed I didn't know how to study, how absurd. Calvinism is an systematic interpretation of the bible simple as that.

If your appeal of lack of study is logically reasoning out the reason why a christian is not a Calvinist then your reasoning is flawed, since not all well read christians are Calvinist.

I know the arguments, yes I disagree with them yet the reality is, regeneration preceding faith is read (deduced, assumed) into the text on the part of the Calvinist.

Yeah right. Is that a logical argument?

Darren

 

combine all you just said with this quote by Paul?

"as it is written: no one is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

 

Man would not respond unless God had first drawn Him, the idea that man without any intervention from God is going to decide to seek after God is completely false.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Darren

 

Im not sure if you totally agree or not, but my point was that the only reason anyone would truly seek and find God is that God has sought out and found them.

 

Yes agreed, if you're saying what I think you are saying. :smilewinkgrin:

God's intervention breaks the pattern of man's rebellion. I believe the bible teaches that once God intervenes man can continue on in rebellion and pride (all being sinners) or they can turn to God in faith and enter into the New Covenant, be saved...etc

Darren

 

Let me just throw this little cameo in here, unsaved man without God isn't going to know how to be saved, what the real precise truth of the universe is, they don't realise they are sinners under God's wrath and judgment, they certainly wouldn't think they need to be saved or seek the true God. The same goes for these false religions, they don't have the truth but lies (from the devil), in order for them to be saved they need to hear the gospel and allow God to speak the truths into their hearts so God can reveal Himself to them and through Christ they can be saved.

So the idea that man could come to God or seek God on their little lonesome without God's first intervening or interacting with them is a complete writeoff, it fails on every front. That is one reason the bible is so important today and God has made sure to preserve His word through the ages, so mankind can know God, hear it, read it and respond as God reveals Himself to them.

Darren

 

OT saints were regenerated. How else would they have spiritual life? The NC was not a new thing; the "new" thing about the new covenant was the widespread nature of it ... All of Israel will be affected by it.

i don't mean by "deduce" what you mean by "read into." They do not mean the same thing in any respect. If you meant "deduce" then you should have said so.

I am not sure about that. If you don't know the difference between reading something in and the process of deduction, it would be very hard to study.

Of course. So are all the alternatives.

You obviously missed the point. The point is not that you should be a Calvinist. the point is that to reject it, you should understand what you are rejecting. You do not seem to understand what you are so against.

Then act like it.

First, "read into" is not the same things as "deduced" and neither is the same things as "assumed." Please use words correctly. Second, it is not read into the text. It is deduced from it. There are certain things that the Bible says that leads to conclusions. That is a deduction.

No, it is a deduction based on what you have said here.

 

Darrenss1- I agree with you for the most part, and men reject God all day everyday. I would say that when God decides to save someone he will do it in a way that they wont reject. This is similar to the effectual call of God that Calvinists hold.

Do you believe God is calling all men to Himself, for salvation? (which is where we may see things differently)

what about those who never hear the Gospel in far out countries?

 

Were they regenerated before they believed? This is just a merry go round of circular reasoning, where do you get the clear scripture that OT SAINTS were in fact regenerated before they believed?

Acccording to Eze 11:19, 36:26; Jer 31:31-33??

Darren

 

Of course I believe that I have it right as do you and all the rest of us on this board! :laugh:

 

How do you explain them coming to God and having eternal life? Even if you do not believe that regeneration precedes faith, you still have to explain how they have eternal life if not regenerated?

The proof texting you are demanding is an inadequate way to study the Bible. Theology has to be understood. The nature of man as dead in trespasses and sins, and continually and willfully rejecting God did not suddenly creep up in the NT. It was the same in the OT. Therefore, there must be regeneration.

 

So therefore as a Calvinist you read regeneration preceding faith back also into the OT. The simple matter was the OT saints never had the benefits of the New Covenant if you attempt to read the spirituality of christianity into the OT faith life you will be doing so in light of the fact that the NC was unique to the post resurrection age.

I asked you very specific question about the prophecies spoken of that were FOR the NC, you say that's not the way to read things? So can you explain it or not?

Darren

 

They believed God, the just shall live by faith. The purpose of election stands by faith. The new birth is for the New Covenant.

Darren

 

When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus why did he expect Him to understand something that wasn't in existence yet? I guess my big question is why do you think regeneration is only of the New Covenant?

 

I don't even believe regeneration precedes faith, so I certainly don't "read it back."

The NC is actually unique to the millennial age. Regeneration is not tied only to the NC.

Yes, I can explain it. I did. Not sure what your question is now. I will try to clarify if you will ask me your question.

Isn't that regeneration? What kind of life was it?

[qutoe]The purpose of election stands by faith.[/quote]Which verse are you referring to here?

Not only. You are saying that no one in the OT had eternal life. But we know that isn't true. Furthermore, Jesus expected Nicodemus to know about regeneration because he was a teacher of the OT.

So I think you fail on all counts.

 

The Old Covenant did not bring any inward change, the scriptures I referred to were for the future of its own time. Nicodemus should have known the scriptures that's why; otherwise which particular section of the law would Jesus be appealing to Nicodemus from being a teacher of Israel that Nicodemus should have known? It must of already been written, so which section of the law was Jesus referring to?

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Eze 11:19, 36:26

Again I ask what writing in the OT for the OT saints proves Nicodemus should have known about regeneration preceding faith? Unless it was a prophetic scripture that Nicodemus was to know about, otherwise which was it? You might prove regeneration for those whom DO believe for the NT (thats a given we all agree on) but not regeneration for those that are unbelievers yet to believe OT or NT.

Darren