A question for the Calvinists

All Calvinist believe that faith comes by hearing, so this verse does not prove you r point now does it? Salvation has many elements all coming from the work of God. Sealing is but one part of Holy Spirits work. Drawing is also part of Holy Spirits work. The new birth, again part of the picture.

in "order of salvation" it all comes down to this. Can man come to God on his own, or must God do something in man to cause him to come? Now I too have given clear scripture for what I believe, yet you say it is not Bible based. You need to drop the hate you have for Calvinist, and maybe you would see we do indeed believe the Bible.

Well...you are saying its your opinion now. But you have been posting like you know so much better and we calvinist are just a bunch of fools that can NOT see the truth. And when you do this, you have said most all the Hymn writers are fools. You have also removed many top theologians from the church. With the words you chose in your hate of others that love the Lord and believe the Bible, it is my guess you would just as soon burn the Calvinist at the stack as they use to do many years ago. Yes...that is my opinion of you.

Now you have changed it to MANY. Which is STILL a picture of the non-believer. So now only some Calvinist are have hardened their hearts. Again, what are you saying about Calvinist?

Why would you say such a thing? Do we not post verses too? Yes we disagree, but why say we do not believe the Bible?

If that is the case, than we are anti-Christ. Is that how you view us? Do you not think we study the Bible? Do you not think we would change our view if we felt that Calvinism was not supported by Scripture? Why is it that you feel as if you know so much more that those you hate?

Well, for starters maybe we see Calvinism clearly in Scripture.

:sleep::sleep:

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Well....are you stubborn? How many times have other "showed you the truth of Calvinism" BASED ON THE BIBLE?????????????????????????????

Please don't base your views on a person only on one line

 

12.............. I will answer you,
for God is greater than man.

13Why do you contend against him,
saying, 'He will answer none of man’s words'?

14For God speaks in one way,
and in two, though man does not perceive it.

15In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men,
while they slumber on their beds,

16then he opens the ears of men
and terrifies them with warnings,

17that he may turn man aside from his deed
and conceal pride from a man;

18he keeps back his soul from the pit,
his life from perishing by the sword.

 

Funny how Calvinists scream how non Cal's don't understand their position and they need to study more yet you Calvinist refuse to accept that non Calvinism or Arminianism clearly teaches that salvation is all of God. God has always been the initiator always was and always will be.

And I was called a blasphemer.... Seriously.

:BangHead:

Darren

 

Actually, that's not circular reasoning by definition or by practice. My position is based on biblical revelation.

I agree. So does Calvinism.

I agree. So does Calvinism.

I agree. So does Calvinism.

Are you willing to believe it? Several weeks ago, I addressed this very point and gave you a link to study. I imagine you haven't done that. You want easy proof texts. You don't want to seriously study the Bible, it doesn't seem.

The fact is that regeneration precediing faith is a theological construct based on the whole teaching of Scripture. It is not based on pulling a verse out of context here or there.

But if you answer what a "natural man" is in 1 Cor 2:14 (and answer it based on 1 Cor 2:14, not based on anything else), then you will be on your way to understanding it. You can figure out what it means to be "dead in trespasses and sins" in Eph 2. There are numerous other passages that indicate that there is a sovereign, unilateral, and effectual work of God on the elect that brings them to salvation.

 

You need to understand some key distinctions. Arminianism does teach, in a sense, that salvation is all of God. But it teaches a prevenient grace that enables all men to respond, and then leaves the final choice up to the individual. Calvinism teaches that grace is no prevenient, but effectual in salvation. In other words, it doesn't just enable, it ensures.

You say that Arminianism says that God is the initiator. That is true. But the problem is that that is where Arminianism leaves it. The Bible takes it farther than that, that God does more than just initiate. He also ensures its completion.

 

No I did not basically say that only Calvinists believe salvation is all God. You made that assumption.

 

WD has the tendency to make a lot of assumptions in his many posts. BTW, did you know his favorite word is "Strawman"? He is far and away the leader in the usage of that term here on the BB.

 

And I'm sure I've read and agree to every scripture the Calvinist take for their interpretation and find Calvinism must be read into the text to make that what Calvinist say, is that necessary further step, yet Calvinism bybasses man's responses and removes it from the picture. God draws the all, man can either reject that or accept and believe. Simple as that.

Darren

 

Have you considered that maybe you could do more for your school of theology if you showed more respect towards other christians?? Your choice.

:1_grouphug:

Darren

 

Just pointing out a fact. It's not a lie.

And I suppose you Sir, have been very nice with those on the Calvinistic side of the bench here? Please.

 

No, not read into. Just a plain reading of the text and comparison with related texts does the trick.

 

You just described non Calvinism from scripture, congratulations!! :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

 

But you claim the final and necessary determination is yours making you responsible for your salvation

 

Winman,

I repeat, you find inconsistency in Scripture when there is none. I would remind you again [with emphasis] of what God told us in Isaiah 55:8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Incidentally your last statement above is just pure slop; not worthy to be posted on a Christian Forum.

 

I am sure you haven't. You may have read the verses, but you have not found that Calvinism must be read into the text in every one of them.

Can you show any Calvinist who does this? Quote someone here who is a CAlvinist, who quote some one that we can read somewhere. Please, show us a Calvinist who bypasses man's response. I have never seen one. The one's that do (and there are some here) usually don't call themselves Calvinists.

 

Regeneration preceding salvation for 1.

Certainly, Calvinist claim man can only "respond" positively to God once they are regenerated/elected. By saying response I was not universally implying an omission of any response, this of course is observed in the "T.U.L.I" of tulip, where man's response to God is generally locked in depending on what side of regeneration they are on.

Darren

 

For 1 what? That's not read into Scriptures. It is deduced from them. If you understand Calvinism, then you would know that. You don't have to agree with it (I don't). But I know why they believe it. I understand the scriptural basis for it.

That's a different claim than you made. The Bible teaches that man's choices are made willingly, regardless of which side of regeneration they are on. Eph 2:1-3 makes it clear that unbelievers are dead willingly ... they live according to their lusts. They do not desire to turn to God. That would contradict that passage.

I think you, like many, are too hung up on a system rather than looking at what the Bible says. When the Bible is looked at apart from the presuppositions, Calvinism is almost certainly the inevitable outcome. It is extremely difficult to come to any other conclusion with out violating the text of Scripture.

 

For 1 issue Calvinist read into the text.

Meaning the same thing.

However God does not regenerate lost sinners to believe in Him. In our countries almost everyone has heard of Christ or preaching of the gospel. God has enabled (drawn) them to come to Him, some do but others do not, that is their own will, to either resist God or to repent/believe. In the Old Testament when God intervened men were able to respond to God and believe Him or reject Him, God did not lock their will for them.

In other words, if we have no system and just read the bible we'll find that Calvinism is the only interpretation the bible supports. Lame, very lame.

Darren

 

You are totally misinterpreting that passage of Scripture. You are taking the passage out of context and using it to indicate that the Saviour is knocking at the door of the sinner’s heart. That is nonsense! This passage is relevant to the seven churches to which John had written letters.

Jesus Christ follows His counsel to the true believers at Laodicea and all churches, As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, with the promise, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock. This promise is only to the regenerate members of the churches. If they repent following chastening, rouse themselves from their false contentment or their sins, and return to their ‘first love’ then He will restore that fellowship that has been broken, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If they do not repent but continue in their sin then the judgment of God will come, even a temporal judgment on the believer [Hebrews 10:29,30].

What is the promise to those who suffer persecution, who persevere, who overcome,who confess that they are strangers and pilgrims on the earth [Hebrews 11:13]. The Lord tells the Church the total number of the redeemed:

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The Apostle Paul writes as follows:

2 Timothy 4:8, KJV
8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The letters to the churches conclude: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

Thanks for posting this. I was wanting to point this out and you beat me to the punch.

I'm always amazed at how folks misinterpret this passage of scripture.

And we Calvinists are accused of twisting scripture to fit our doctrines!!