A question for the Calvinists

[DeafPosttrib]

Pastor Larry,

The NC is actually inique to the Millennial age. Regeneration is not tied only to NC

WHOA! WHOA! Do you mean that the New Covenant is not yet in effect upon us right now? If so, does that mean we have to ask priests to make offer another lamb, by slain lamb to put it on the altar and to make other sacrifice to make another atonement to forgive our sins often and often daily today?? I mean that, are we still under the Old Covenant economy now?

I ask you a question.

What is a "New Covenant"?

Secondly, what was the purpose of Christ's sacrifice on the cross??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[FlyForFun]

Calvinism's doctrine on the one of the five points- 'Irresisitble Grace'. They believe that a elect cannot come to God till God's effect power with Holy Spirit regenerates into elect's soul, THEN believe Jesus immediately without being resist with Holy Spirit.

Is this Bibilical?

You conveniently knocked down the straw man you set up.

Calvin did not posit that there was an instantaneous moment of regeneration. Rather, that the Spirit moves and shapes the elect
and draws each to God irresistably.

There is a difference.

 

[Darrenss1]

I said:
"The Holy Spirit regenerates the new believer as HE indwells them. You need scripture for that?"

Yes.

Regeneration happens once the Holy Spirit indwells new believers. Since the OC did not have this occur I reason that the faith life in the OC was not one of regeneration.

John 7:39
Eph 3:16-19
Eph 4:6
1 Cor 3:16
2 Cor 5:17
1 John 5:1
Col 1:27
Titus 3:4-7

As noted also in the weakness of the OC:
Heb 8:7-13

So they have eternal life but they were not regenerated? And you think that makes sense? What is eternal life? What is regeneration? Perhaps we are having a hard time here because we are working from different definitions.

Yes it makes perfect sense. As long as God was with them and they followed His laws and believed in God they would be saved. God placed before then both death and life and they chose by following the law. Eternal life is knowing God and following God by faith. In the NC God dwells in His people and they become spiritual children of God, this is clearly not the case of the OC.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Darren

 

[Jim1999]

The actual word "regeneration" is mentioned only twice in the NT; Mt 19:28, referring to the future restoration of everything; and Tit 3:5 to refer to the change in an individual. Another term. "new birth" (Hn 3:3, 7:1, Pet 1:3, 23) describing the initial act of renewal, and being renewed (Col 3:10) describing the continuous application and expression of regeneration.

For an application of regeneration in the OT read Jer 31:31ff, which sees God's laws written on human hearts (more that following a written law for salvation...it is actually a redemptive act from within).

Salvation was the same in the OT as in the NT and as it is now.

We don't have two gospels!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

WHOA! WHOA! Do you mean that the New Covenant is not yet in effect upon us right now?

Yes, read it, and see who it is given to/talking about, and see what it says will happen, and compare it to what is actually happening. It is fairly easy to see that it is not in force, at least fully.

If so, does that mean we have to ask priests to make offer another lamb, by slain lamb to put it on the altar and to make other sacrifice to make another atonement to forgive our sins often and often daily today??

No of course not.

I mean that, are we still under the Old Covenant economy now?

No, of course not.

What is a "New Covenant"?

A covenant made with the same people with whom the old covenant was made, that promises spiritual and national restoration including restoration to the land. (Go ahead, read it, and you will see that it is all there.).

Secondly, what was the purpose of Christ's sacrifice on the cross??

To pay for sin.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Regeneration happens once the Holy Spirit indwells new believers. Since the OC did not have this occur I reason that the faith life in the OC was not one of regeneration.

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit have indwelt believers? remember, that Bible doesn't say that.

John 7:39
Eph 3:16-19
Eph 4:6
1 Cor 3:16
2 Cor 5:17
1 John 5:1
Col 1:27
Titus 3:4-7

I don't see anything here that tells us what you are saying. Got any more?

Yes it makes perfect sense. As long as God was with them and they followed His laws and believed in God they would be saved. God placed before then both death and life and they chose by following the law. Eternal life is knowing God and following God by faith. In the NC God dwells in His people and they become spiritual children of God, this is clearly not the case of the OC.

So people in the OT worked for their salvation?

 

[Darrenss1]

Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit have indwelt believers? remember, that Bible doesn't say that.

Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Therefore since the Holy Spirit could not obtain this ministry until after Christ was glorified it makes perfect sense.

I don't see anything here that tells us what you are saying. Got any more?

The Holy Spirit regenerates when HE indwells believers, HE makes them spiritual children of God as this is possible because of the sacrifice of Christ (blood atonement) makes indwelling possible.

So people in the OT worked for their salvation?

I just said by faith, what part of that is works?

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

For an application of regeneration in the OT read Jer 31:31ff, which sees God's laws written on human hearts (more that following a written law for salvation...it is actually a redemptive act from within).

Yes and Jer 31:31 was referring to the NC. Simple as that.

We don't have two gospels!

No one said there were 2 gospels. The New replaced the Old.

Darren

 

[Pastor Larry]

Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Therefore since the Holy Spirit could not obtain this ministry until after Christ was glorified it makes perfect sense.

So how do you konw the ministry in question was indwelling? Why wasn't it spirit baptism? Or sealing? Or something else?

The Holy Spirit regenerates when HE indwells believers

I don't disagree necessarily.

I just said by faith, what part of that is works?

The part where you said, "As long as God was with them and they followed His laws and believed in God they would be saved. God placed before then both death and life and they chose by following the law.

 

[Darrenss1]

So how do you konw the ministry in question was indwelling? Why wasn't it spirit baptism? Or sealing? Or something else?

Once the Holy Spirit indwells new believers HE is able to complete both HIS office as comforter, guide, strengthening of inner man, transforming the inner man, sactification...etc That is possible only after Christ ascended according to what I understand, the Holy Spirit could not affect what has not been rightly atoned for. Now gifting is a different story as we know the Holy Spirit did fill those in the OT/OC for ministry purposes. However that was not as far as I can see a regenerating work and clearly not the same application as it was for the NT believer and further the Holy Spirit could depart that person not so with the NT believer. Where is the evidence in the OT for a widespread regenerating work? The Jews were like yo yo's most of the time, unless they had a leader for God enforcing the law, they usually ended up worse than better.

The part where you said, "As long as God was with them and they followed His laws and believed in God they would be saved. God placed before then both death and life and they chose by following the law.

Ok but my emphasis was that through the law and the presence of God with those whom were doing right, others would be able to see and believe in God. The law did not save it only condemned but OT saints found grace and mercy in the sight of God. So faith came by the present testimony of those whom were believing, yet those whom were believing were trying to please God by doing right as best they could according to the law God gave them (they still sinned as we all do). The law was the knowledge of sin it did not save, as I said. I believe the bible teaches that they could follow God when confronted with the choices God gave them through the law, the knowledge of the law, of God's Word; it had an external power but it did not transform the inner man. That is why nations/men could repent at the preaching of the prophets.

Darren

 

[zrs6v4]

Yes and Jer 31:31 was referring to the NC. Simple as that. Darren

quick questions.

1. When exactly do you think this regenerating work started in the NC, before or after Jesus died on the cross?

2. If it took place after, then why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that He needed to be born again?

3. When Jesus said that you must be born again to ENTER the kingdom of God do you think that he meant from this point on or that all people in heaven must have been born again including OT saints?

 

[Darrenss1]

quick questions.
1. When exactly do you think this regenerating work started in the NC, before or after Jesus died on the cross?

After.

2. If it took place after, then why did Jesus tell Nicodemus that He needed to be born again?

Pointing towards the NC as spoken of in the verses of quoted.

3. When Jesus said that you must be born again to ENTER the kingdom of God do you think that he meant from this point on or that all people in heaven must have been born again including OT saints?

No. The NC replaced the old. I've yet to see any doctrine that teaches the OC Jews were born again.

Darren

 

[kyredneck]

....The New replaced the Old. Darren

WRONG. There's nothing new about any of the spiritual tenets of the New Covenant. They're new only because the mysteries had not been previously revealed until the time came for the removal of the old:

.....the removing of those things that are shaken.....that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:27

In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old..... Heb 8:13

The old was the shadow of what was already there.

 

[kyredneck]

.... I've yet to see any doctrine that teaches the OC Jews were born again. Darren

Then you're not familiar with Hardshell doctrine are you?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1442512#post1442512

 

[Darrenss1]

WRONG. There's nothing new about any of the spiritual tenets of the New Covenant. They're new only because the mysteries had not been previously revealed until the time came for the removal of the old:

.....the removing of those things that are shaken.....that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:27

In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old..... Heb 8:13

The old was the shadow of what was already there.

The NC is new because God did something through Christ for the first time, never been done before, neither will be again:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Like it or not, its a fact.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Then you're not familiar with Hardshell doctrine are you?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1442512#post1442512

And? An interpretation is just that. As I said, show me where there was any widespread regeneration in the OC, the fact is, Jews under the law in the OT were not regenerated. The ministry of the HS after the ascension of Christ in the church age is new and was unique from anything previous in the OT. There are lots of mysteries revealed about God in the NT, OT regeneration was not among them. Clearly this goes back to inference, the same as the claim that man must be regenerated before they can believe. The fact that Jer 31:31 speaks of the NC factors in what God will do, future tense not for that present time.

Darren

 

[Winman]

Darren is correct, the Holy Spirit did not abide within believers in the Old Testament but came and went. The Holy Spirit left king Saul.

1 Sam 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

The Holy Spirit departed from Saul. And after Samuel's annoiting, the Holy Spirit came upon David from that day forward. But when David sinned greatly he prayed for forgiveness and that the Lord would not take the Holy Spirit away from him.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

No one would pray this today, for the Holy Spirit abides with believers forever.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

In believers today the Holy Spirit lives and abides with us for ever. And notice we are born again by the word of God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Darren is correct, the Holy Spirit did not abide within believers in the Old Testament but came and went. The Holy Spirit left king Saul.

Whatever the case with the indwelling/regeneration of OT believers, this is not either. IT is the theocratic anointing which was given to leaders/rulers such as Moses, Joshua, the judges, Saul, David. It has nothing to do with either regeneration or indwelling.

 

[Winman]

Well, show scriptures that clearly show OT saints were regenerated and had the indwelling Spirit. Should be easy if it is so.

 

[Darrenss1]

Whatever the case with the indwelling/regeneration of OT believers, this is not either. IT is the theocratic anointing which was given to leaders/rulers such as Moses, Joshua, the judges, Saul, David. It has nothing to do with either regeneration or indwelling.

So if you are suggesting that God regenerates unbelievers before they believe yet without the HS indwelling, where is this teaching found? Being born-again is clearly from what I can see a work of the HS upon indwelling new believers of the NC, those whom have received the atoning work of Christ applied to them. Where are the OT examples to make the case.

Darren