A question only for the reformed, please.

[Scarlett O.]

Do ALL reformed people believe the aborted babies and miscarried babies spend an eternity burning in hell?

Or is this just a hyper-Calvinist belief.

I do not intend to post again in this thread - I am only extremely curious. And I am not looking for the comments or opinion of the non-reformed.

If non-Cals wish to respond, here the currently active link for that thread. Do the aborted and babies that die . . . | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[Reformed1689]

Do ALL reformed people believe the aborted babies and miscarried babies spend an eternity burning in hell?

Or is this just a hyper-Calvinist belief.

I do not intend to post again in this thread - I am only extremely curious. And I am not looking for the comments or opinion of the non-reformed.

If non-Cals wish to respond, here the currently active link for that thread. Do the aborted and babies that die . . . | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

I am reformed, and I don't pretend to know what happens to aborted babies, miscarried babies, or 3 day old babies if they die. Only God knows that answer.

 

[Dave G]

Do ALL reformed people believe the aborted babies and miscarried babies spend an eternity burning in hell?

Or is this just a hyper-Calvinist belief.

I'm not "reformed" ( and was never raised in that tradition ) and I happen to believe, through understanding of what these passages ( and many others that speak to the condition of all men apart from the grace of God ) say, that's it's the truth of the Bible that God does not give any sinner a "free pass" or a break of any kind.

Romans 3:10-18.
Romans 3:23.
Ecclesiastes 7:20.
Jeremiah 13:23.
Psalms 10.
Psalms 14.
Psalms 53.
Psalms 58:3.

Infant or not, when it comes to who goes to be with the Lord and who goes to Hell ( and eventually to the Lake of Fire ) it all comes down to who God is gracious to, and who He chooses not to be gracious and merciful to ( Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19 ).

I also see that there is no such thing as an "age of accountability", either.

While I was taught this in Independent Baptist churches growing up, I never saw any Scriptural support for it, neither was anything definitive ever presented.
Rather, anything that went this direction was always answered with, "Would a loving God send infants to Hell?", and that was the answer...
Whatever seemed right to us as people, and not what His word actually declared ( or didn't declare ).

If that wasn't enough, then 2 Samuel 12:23 was used in an attempt to make it apply to all infants, which I thought was always a stretch...
But honestly, I could sense, whenever the subject came up, that it made everyone feel uncomfortable and that whatever answer was forthcoming, it would never result in actually offending anyone.

In addition, the question, like election ( which never came up in my church, nor the Baptist Christian school that I attended for part of high school, nor the other churches that I visited ) and like certain passages in the Bible such as John 6, John 8, Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1 and several others that come to mind...

Was always answered ( I felt ) not to inform,
but to get an uncomfortable passage or question out of the way as soon as possible and to move on;
Anything rather than to have to directly deal with it or the fallout that would inevitably come from a long, drawn-out discussion about it.

 

[Dave G]

@Scarlett O.
That said, Scripture firmly establishes that all are sinners...

Unless one comes to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 ) and evidences the new birth ( John 3:3, John 3:5 ), coming to trust Christ and His work alone on the cross for them, then to me the conclusion is rather ( and very soberingly ) obvious that those who do not come to believe on Christ are not and never were saved;
No matter what their age is when they die, what their intentions might have been, and what their sex, ethnic group, economic situation or anything else they may do or possess or be, is.
God is not a respecter of persons when it comes to who He saves.

We also know from His word that the Lord does not work according to our ways...

Therefore, what He says about Himself and His ways, are all that we have to go on.
If He does not directly answer the question, then we have other Scriptures that can and do give us an answer...
And I guarantee that it will be one that most people will instantly reject, probably because they love their children and spouses more than they love the Lord, in my opinion.

 

[Dave G]

@Scarlett O.
Then there's the matter of our own will and purposes versus His:

Simply filling a blank with "what would a just God do?" in our own minds is not and never should be a trustworthy answer,
as we as God's children are not to rely on our own understanding, but on Him and His words alone ( Proverbs 3:5-7, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ).

So, as alarming or offensive as it may seem, if the Lord wants to cast any sinner into the Lake of Fire, that is His prerogative and that is the penalty for sin.
If the Lord wants to forgive one and not another, that is also His prerogative.

What He says in the entirety of His word is what we should base our beliefs and conclusions on,
and if anyone can find any Scriptures that clearly tell believers that people ( no matter the age ) who have not believed on Christ are somehow saved, then please post them;

But before you do,
I've already looked very comprehensively at this and I can tell you that I know of none.
In other words, there are no "loopholes" when it comes to who God grants eternal life to, and who He does not.
ALL must come to believe on Christ, or they are not His.


In the end,
I have to remember that whatever He does, He is righteous and He is holy.
My own judgement does not strip Him of His right to rule from His throne, nor does it determine Who He is or what He has the authority to do.

He is just and we are not qualified to superimpose our opinions or to counsel the Lord on who He will save and for what reason.
We are ALL sinners from birth ( Psalms 58:3, Isaiah 48:8, Job 15:14 ), no exceptions.

And no, not all "Reformed" Christians are in agreement with this, and no, it is not "Hyper-Calvinism"...
But many would call it that.


Apologies for the long replies, and may you have a good evening.

 

[JonC]

I'm not "reformed" ( and was never raised in that tradition ) and I happen to believe, through understanding of what these passages ( and many others that speak to the condition of all men apart from the grace of God ) say, that's it's the truth of the Bible that God does not give any sinner a "free pass" or a break of any kind.

Romans 3:10-18.
Romans 3:23.
Ecclesiastes 7:20.
Psalms 10.
Psalms 14.
Psalms 53.
Psalms 58:3.

Infant or not, when it comes to who goes to be with the Lord and who goes to Hell ( and eventually to the Lake of Fire ) it all comes down to who God is gracious to, and who He chooses not to be gracious and merciful to ( Romans 9:14-18, Exodus 33:19 ).

I also see that there is no such thing as an "age of accountability", either.

While I was taught this in Independent Baptist churches growing up, I never saw any Scriptural support for it, neither was anything definitive ever presented.
Rather, anything that went this direction was always answered with, "Would a loving God send infants to Hell?", and that was the answer...
Whatever seemed right to us as people, and not what His word actually declared ( or didn't declare ).

If that wasn't enough, then 2 Samuel 12:23 was used in an attempt to make it apply to all infants, which I thought was always a stretch...
But honestly, I could sense, whenever the subject came, that it made everyone feel uncomfortable and that whatever answer was forthcoming, it would never result in offending anyone.

In addition, the question, like election ( which never came up in my church, nor the Baptist Christian school that I attended for part of high school, nor the other churches that I visited ) and like certain passages in the Bible such as Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 11, Ephesians 1 and several others that come to mind...

Was always answered ( I felt ) not to inform,
but to get an uncomfortable passage or question out of the way as soon as possible and to move on;
Anything rather than to have to directly deal with it or the fallout that would inevitably come from a long, drawn-out discussion about it.

Not to be nick picky, but you are not quite correct with your use of "all". Jews did not typically consider children in "all" when it comes to moral accountability or responsibility. Sometimes women were not even included in "all".

 

[Dave G]

Not to be nick picky, but you are not quite correct with your use of "all".

That is your opinion and I respect that...
Even though I don't happen to share it.

The Bible says that all have sinned, and that there is not a just person on earth that does good and sins not.
That's all I need to know.

Jews did not typically consider children in "all" when it comes to moral accountability or responsibility.

I don't care what the Jews did or didn't do, Jon.
All I care about is what God's word says or does not say.


I wish you a good evening to you as well.

 

[Iconoclast]

From the 1689 Confession of faith;
3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

I always post this statement which I believe is worded perfectly.

 

[JonC]

That is your opinion and I respect that...
Even though I don't happen to share it.

The Bible says that all have sinned, and that there is not a just person on earth that does good and sins not.
That's all I need to know.

I don't care what the Jews did or didn't do, Jon.
All I care about is what God's word says or does not say.

Good evening to you as well.

Calvinists often point this out when discussing limited atonement.

For example, do you believe Scripture that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all, that He died that all may live? Or do you believe "all" to refer to a specific group?

But we know the Jewish belief regarding accountability. I think it reasonable (but not necessarily the right view) to think there is a chance the context (of the 1st Century) could apply.

 

[canadyjd]

I consider myself reformed but would not presume to speak for anyone else.

Based on David’s statement about being able to see his deceased son again, I believe all infants go to heaven. I know of no other scripture that addresses the issue.

As far as infants expressing repentance and faith, Martin Luther had the view that even if they couldn’t express repentance and faith in a way we can understand, that doesn’t mean God couldn’t understand it should Holy Spirit communicate with the infant as He does with us. We also know John the Baptist was in-dwelt by Holy Spirit in the womb.

Not sure I completely agree with that assessment, but it is a good argument.

peace to you

 

[AustinC]

Do ALL reformed people believe the aborted babies and miscarried babies spend an eternity burning in hell?

Or is this just a hyper-Calvinist belief.

I do not intend to post again in this thread - I am only extremely curious. And I am not looking for the comments or opinion of the non-reformed.

If non-Cals wish to respond, here the currently active link for that thread. Do the aborted and babies that die . . . | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

As a Reformed person, here is my response:

2 Samuel 12:22-23
He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

"By grace you are saved."

The God who chooses to extend grace, may do whatever he wills to do and whatever he wills to do is good.

 

[canadyjd]

From the 1689 Confession of faith;
3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

I always post this statement which I believe is worded perfectly.

I believe all infants dying in infancy are elect.

peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

Do ALL reformed people believe the aborted babies and miscarried babies spend an eternity burning in hell?

Or is this just a hyper-Calvinist belief.

I do not intend to post again in this thread - I am only extremely curious. And I am not looking for the comments or opinion of the non-reformed.

If non-Cals wish to respond, here the currently active link for that thread. Do the aborted and babies that die . . . | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

Since I am not Catholic...
Seriously, we are all reformed.
From the Calvinistic point of view, why would birth have any bearing on election? I see the topic as an emotional appeal against Calvinism.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe all infants dying in infancy are elect.

peace to you

I understand...I leave it to God.

 

[Scott Downey]

Infants and even little children are saved.
People need to rethink what being born again, born of God is and how it is accomplished, (especially non Calvinists)
It is not an act of our will being born of God.
It is what God's Holy Spirit does for those He saves.
Then there is the timing of being born of God, as Calvinists, we believe you must be born again first, before you will believe.
And how then does our material age have any bearing on this.
Another proof is the question never came up regarding infants and little children going to hell, so the natural assumption is God would save them, preaching of the gospel was to adults.
Another is Paul calls the children of believers 'HOLY', which means they are saved.
Another is how Christ talks about the little children, and how he says let them come to me, and of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Psalm 8:2
Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have ordained strength, Because of Your enemies, That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.

Matthew 21:16
and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants You have perfected praise’?”

Luke 18:15-16
New King James Version
15 Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.


1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Deuteronomy 1
39 ‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. 40 But as for you, turn and take your journey into the wilderness by the Way of the Red Sea.’

 

[Scott Downey]

Genesis 8:21
And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

At some point, infants and little children become youths and then they know evil and good on a very basic personal level. Everyone born into this world will begin to have an evil imagination at some point in their growth in this world as this world is under the sway of the evil one.
God did not say 'from his birth', He said 'from his youth' which only implies at a youthful age of life their heart's imagination becomes evil.

 

[Iconoclast]

Genesis 8:21
And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

At some point, infants and little children become youths and then they know evil and good on a very basic personal level. Everyone born into this world will begin to have an evil imagination at some point in their growth in this world as this world is under the sway of the evil one.
God did not say 'from his birth', He said 'from his youth' which only implies at a youthful age of life their heart's imagination becomes evil.

no...
we are sinners at conception.
1 cor7:14 does not teach those children are saved.

 

[Scott Downey]

no...
we are sinners at conception.

The word IMPUTE here is significant regarding our sins and righteousness (right standing with God).

You know there is a difference being pointed out in the scriptures. I did not mention sinfulness, God pointed out that infants and little children do not know good and evil yet, so God does not hold them accountable, does not impute to them their sin and the same for us saved adults, it says

Romans 4:6-9
New King James Version

6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

If God imputes to an infant, sin, then they will go into hellfire. However the scriptures indicate the opposite, like in Deuteronomy, the little children who do not know good and evil, they inherited God's promises.

The letter of the Law kills, but the Spirit gives life.

 

[kyredneck]

From the 1689 Confession of faith;
3. Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

I always post this statement which I believe is worded perfectly.

...and non-elect infants that die? What?

 

[kyredneck]

Do ALL reformed people believe the aborted babies and miscarried babies spend an eternity burning in hell?

Or is this just a hyper-Calvinist belief.

I consider myself 'hyper-Monergist' and the idea totally repulses me.