A question only for the reformed, please.

[Iconoclast]

Also, that judgement seat is for works done in the body, not for justification

 

[Batt4Christ]

I'm not sure I've ever met even the most "hyper" of hyper-Calvinists who claim to believe that aborted and miscarried babies burn in Hell! Quite the contrary - the majority I know actually are the most insistent that those babies are affirmed to be in Heaven (though will acknowledge that truly only God knows).

 

[SGO]

I found them in a number of posts on this very thread.

 

[Yeshua1]

@Scarlett O.
That said, Scripture firmly establishes that all are sinners...

Unless one comes to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:9 ) and evidences the new birth ( John 3:3, John 3:5 ), coming to trust Christ and His work alone on the cross for them, then to me the conclusion is rather ( and very soberingly ) obvious that those who do not come to believe on Christ are not and never were saved;
No matter what their age is when they die, what their intentions might have been, and what their sex, ethnic group, economic situation or anything else they may do or possess or be, is.
God is not a respecter of persons when it comes to who He saves.

We also know from His word that the Lord does not work according to our ways...

Therefore, what He says about Himself and His ways, are all that we have to go on.
If He does not directly answer the question, then we have other Scriptures that can and do give us an answer...
And I guarantee that it will be one that most people will instantly reject, probably because they love their children and spouses more than they love the Lord, in my opinion.

All babies aborted will go to Heaven, but will not stay as babies for all eternity!

 

[SavedByGrace]

All babies aborted will go to Heaven, but will not stay as babies for all eternity!

even the "non elect" ones?

 

[Yeshua1]

even the "non elect" ones?

My view would be that all aborted babies are elected by the father to receive eternal life in Christ!

 

[SavedByGrace]

My view would be that all aborted babies are elected by the father to receive eternal life in Christ!

Bible support?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Do ALL reformed people believe the aborted babies and miscarried babies spend an eternity burning in hell?

Or is this just a hyper-Calvinist belief.

I do not intend to post again in this thread - I am only extremely curious. And I am not looking for the comments or opinion of the non-reformed.

If non-Cals wish to respond, here the currently active link for that thread. Do the aborted and babies that die . . . | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

I never heard of any Reformed Christian who believes that. I have never heard of any hyper-Calvinist who believes it, though possibly there may be some somewhere. Do you have a quote since you seem so sure about it?
@Iconoclast posted an extract from the 1689 Confession of faith which I repeat:
From the 1689 Confession of faith 10:3.
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3-8 )

I'll throw in another text: Genesis 18:25. 'Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?' Of course He will!

 

[Dave G]

All babies aborted will go to Heaven, but will not stay as babies for all eternity!

Firstly,
I want everyone who reads this to understand one thing...
I would very much wish the Lord to save aborted babies, infants who die before they have a chance to hear the Gospel, and many others with no capacity for understanding of any kind...

But the truth is,
I simply cannot find such a loop hole in all of God's words that automatically gives certain people a free pass regarding their sins.

So, if people here believe that this is true, I'll need to see what God's word says about all that, if you have any references.
So far as I know, there is nothing in the Scriptures that declare what you've stated above, Dave, and nothing that says that we are not all sinners.

Scripture says that no one outside of Christ will be saved.
No one who does not believe on Him, is saved.

 

[Dave G]

1) " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).

This tells me that only those who are born again can see the kingdom of God.

Where the 1689 Confession comes to its conclusion that babies dying in infancy are automatically elect, I do not know.
To me, this is very similar to those who believe and teach an "age of accountability", in which a child who dies, automatically goes to be with the Lord... but "after a certain point" they become accountable to God for their sins.

In other words, God somehow grants certain human beings a "free pass"... even though we are all sinners ( Romans 3:10-11, Romans 3:23, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Psalms 53 ).

2) They must come to repentance:
" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

This tells me that the beloved from verse 8 are the ones to whom the Lord is not willing that any perish, but that they all should come to repentance.

 

[Dave G]

3) " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. " ( John 5:24 ).

This tells me that only those who hear His words and believe on the Father that sent the Lord, have eternal life.
Stated in another way, all who are saved must hear God's words and believe on both Christ and the Father.

4) " All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:37 ).
All that the Father gives to His Son, shall come to Him ( believe on Him ).

5) " And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:40 ).
Here I plainly see that only those who see the Son and believe on Him, may have everlasting life.

6) " Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" ( John 11:25-26 ).
Again, a person who is saved must believe.

7) " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 ).

There is no such thing as someone who is saved and does not believe on Christ.
The Scriptures do not teach that a person can be one of the saved apart from hearing the word of God, believing it, and coming to repentance.

8) " that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." ( Romans 10:9-13 ).

Do babies confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in their hearts that God has raised Christ from the dead?
Do they call upon the name of the Lord ?

People,
As much as I'd like to see the Lord save those outside of Christ, that is the "box" that He has decided to save anyone through;
Belief on His Son.

There simply is no other way that a person evidences their salvation.

 

[Dave G]

Finally,

How is it that adult Muslims, Hindus, Shintos, Buddhists, Hebrews, Satanists and pagans are not considered as saved by many here, but their infants somehow are?
Am I understanding some of you when you state that unbelieving infants are automatically saved?

This, my friends, is alien to the Scriptures.

Again, as much as I would like to see the Lord save all sorts of people, I don't have any say on the matter.
He has the final say ( and the only say ), and nothing you or I can do will change that.
He says that only those who believe on Christ, repent of their sins and confess Him and His Son, are saved.

That is what the Scriptures say, and for us to go beyond that is to teach something that the Bible does not declare...
The salvation of those who have not believed on Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

1) " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." ( John 3:3 ).

This tells me that only those who are born again can see the kingdom of God.

Where the 1689 Confession comes to its conclusion that babies dying in infancy are automatically saved, I do not know.
To me, this is very similar to those who believe and teach an "age of accountability", in which a child who dies, automatically goes to be with the Lord, but "after a certain point" they become responsible for their sins.

In other words, God somehow grants certain human beings a "free pass", even though we are all sinners ( Romans 3:10-11, Romans 3:23, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Psalms 53 ).

2) They must come to repentance:
" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

This tells me that the beloved from verse 8 are the ones to whom the Lord is not willing that any perish, but that they all should come to repentance.

I stated this earlier, but will repeat it.

The only place in scripture that directly addresses this issue is David’s statement he will go to his child that had died in infancy. David believed he would see his son in heaven when he died.

Others have pointed out Jesus’s statement concerning children coming to Him, saying such are the Kingdom of Heaven.

On the one hand, folks will say this wasn’t literal, but symbolic of “child-like” faith. On the other hand, these same folks will say children don’t have the capacity to understand the gospel and have genuine repentance and faith. So what is Jesus saying?

What if these passages shed more light than we know or acknowledge? What if heaven is full of all children dying in infancy?

What if these passages reveal that God Holy Spirit communicates with babies (as He did with John in the womb) and brings them to repentance and faith in a way God understands, but we cannot?

Most say, “we don’t know” or “scripture doesn’t say” what happens to babies dying in infancy. The bottom line, for me, is why is it necessary to stake out a position that babies in up in hell?

peace to you

 

[Dave G]

The only place in scripture that directly addresses this issue is David’s statement he will go to his child that had died in infancy. David believed he would see his son in heaven when he died.

" But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." ( 2 Samuel 12:23 ).

That's quite a bit to be basing a doctrine on, as I see it.

What if these passages shed more light than we know or acknowledge? What if heaven is full of all children dying in infancy?

That would be a nice comfort for many, but I cannot tell people in all honesty that the Bible says babies are automatically saved,
given what it tells us about those who are not.

What if these passages reveal that God Holy Spirit communicates with babies (as He did with John in the womb) and brings them to repentance and faith in a way God understands, but we cannot?

Does the Bible anywhere declare that all are not sinners?
Does the Bible anywhere declare a loop hole for sinners to be with the Lord apart from believing on Christ?

Most say, “we don’t know” or “scripture doesn’t say” what happens to babies dying in infancy. The bottom line, for me, is why is it necessary to stake out a position that babies in up in hell?

Why is it necessary to stake out a position that we cannot know, given what we do know?

I'm sorry, but I cannot do that,
and I couldn't care less if everyone on this board gets offended at me for it.
In all honesty, what we do know scares me sober.



Peace to you as well.

 

[Jerome]

Where the 1689 Confession comes to its conclusion that babies dying in infancy are automatically saved, I do not know.

Reformed Baptist Fellowship blog

[maintains that although 1689 LBCF paragraph 10.3 "asserts only the salvation of 'elect infants dying in infancy', not all infants dying in infancy", even so "it probably would have been better omitted from the Confession, since it is arguably dubious."]



[as you can see, Spurgeon is criticized as well (in his nineteenth-century edition of 1689LBCF, Spurgeon deleted the word "Elect" and left just "Infants dying in infancy...")]

 

[kyredneck]

Also, that judgement seat is for works done in the body, not for justification

If you're referring to the Bema judgment, justification is precisely what it's about:

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2

You 'Reformed types' have totally gone to seed with your unbiblical sola, 'justification by faith alone'.

Babies have no works to be judged by, it doesn't take a genius to know that.

 

[canadyjd]

....

Does the Bible anywhere declare that all are not sinners?

Does the Bible anywhere declare a loop hole for sinners to be with the Lord apart from believing on Christ?

Peace to you as well.

Where in my statement did I say there is “loop hole” for babies?

The “mark” of salvation is indwelling Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us John was filled with Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb.

Was John a sinner at conception? Of course, everyone is. Did John receive the “mark” of salvation: indwelling Holy Spirit: while in his mother’s womb? Scripture tells us he did.

So, the only explanation I can see is that God Holy Spirit intervened in John’s life in the womb, bringing him to salvation like everyone else that is saved.

That must mean John responded to God with repentance and faith, while in the womb, in a way God understood but is beyond our comprehension.

If God Holy Spirit is capable of doing that with John, why deny that possibility to every baby that dies in infancy.

Given that Jesus says of children, “such are the Kingdom of Heaven”, perhaps there is more scriptural support than you are acknowledging.

BTW, you should always care what others think about you, especially when they disagree.

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

Scripture tells us John was filled with Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb.

Bingo. Isaac born after the Spirit before he was weaned; David made to hope while on his mother's breast; John the Baptist filled with the Spirit while in the womb; Paul separated from his mother's womb to preach to the nations, the birth from above occurs long before ever hearing.

 

[Dave G]

Given that Jesus says of children, “such are the Kingdom of Heaven”, perhaps there is most scriptural support than you are acknowledging.

I would hope that you would read this again,
as I do not know where you get the idea that He says of all children,"such are the Kingdom of Heaven":

" At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea." ( Matthew 18:1-6 ).

" And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when [his] disciples saw [it], they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." ( Luke 18:15-17 ).

I've emphasized the parts of the text that I think should tell anyone reading this, why Jesus uses a child as an example...
This tells me that God's people are as little children to Him,
and that anyone who offends them is in grave danger.

Also, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall not enter in.

BTW, you should always care what others think about you, especially when they disagree.

No, I should not care what others think about me,
as I'm not interested in people actually following me or in people thinking well of me for telling them things that I do not see the Scriptures teaching.

When people disagree with me, I won't hold it against them... and that definitely does not give me leave to walk all over them.
But we can agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

With that, I take my leave of this thread.
I've stated what I feel needed to be said.

May God bless you all as you carefully consider all that has been posted.

 

[canadyjd]

Bingo. Isaac born after the Spirit before he was weaned; David made to hope while on his mother's breast; John the Baptist filled with the Spirit while in the womb; Paul separated from his mother's womb to preach to the nations, the birth from above occurs long before ever hearing.

I wasn’t saying that of any of those folks.

peace to you