A question only for the reformed, please.

[canadyjd]

I would hope that you would read this again,
as I do not know where you get the idea that He says of all children,"such are the Kingdom of Heaven":....

I get it from Luke 18:16

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

I wasn’t saying that of any of those folks.

K, but I was. 'The Spirit where He willeth doth blow'. No preachers, parents, SS teachers, missionaries, etc., conveys the Spirit, He goes where He wills, even to the womb.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

 

[Iconoclast]

"kyredneck,

If you're referring to the Bema judgment, justification is precisely what it's about:

Hello Kyred,
You are not correct here, and this article might be helpful to see why;

The Doctrine of Rewards: The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ | Bible.org

In other words, it is a reward seat and portrays a time of rewards or loss of rewards following examination, but it is not a time of punishment where believers are judged for their sins. Such would be inconsistent with the finished work of Christ on the Cross because He totally paid the penalty for our sins. Chafer and Walvoord have an excellent word on this view:

With reference to sin, Scripture teaches that the child of God under grace shall not come into judgment (3

Again, Chafer writes concerning the Bema, “It cannot be too strongly emphasized that the judgment is unrelated to the problem of sin, that it is more for the bestowing of rewards than the rejection of failure.”4

You 'Reformed types' have totally gone to seed with your unbiblical sola, 'justification by faith alone'.

Kyred...I am not sure you understand that teaching as that justified person will have "good works" as you described in your Romans 2 quote.
What you are posting is along the lines of NT, Wright and the New perspectives on Paul. I do not think you are intending to do that.

 

[canadyjd]

K, but I was. 'The Spirit where He willeth doth blow'. No preachers, parents, SS teachers, missionaries, etc., conveys the Spirit, He goes where He wills, even to the womb.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

Ok, thanks

peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

it is a reward seat and portrays a time of rewards or loss of rewards following examination, but it is not a time of punishment where believers are judged for their sins. Such would be inconsistent with the finished work of Christ on the Cross because He totally paid the penalty for our sins. Chafer and Walvoord have an excellent word on this view

Wrong. It's only inconsistent with the Reformed dogma that you parrot. God is going to render to each one of us, eternally, according to our works. I know this sounds heretical to all those who have been molded in the 'justification by faith alone' mindset but there's nothing for the saints to fear here. The very same Spirit that compels us to believe also writes His law in our hearts that enables us to be 'doers of the law'. Justification is NOT BY FAITH ONLY:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

Shame on you Icon for being such a 'heller' that you would condemn innocent infants to an infinity of torment. Shame, shame, shame, shame.....

 

[SavedByGrace]

Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3-8 )

complete and utter RUBBISH!

 

[tyndale1946]

K, but I was. 'The Spirit where He willeth doth blow'. No preachers, parents, SS teachers, missionaries, etc., conveys the Spirit, He goes where He wills, even to the womb.

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Brother Glen

 

[Iconoclast]

Kyred,
I search out the best teaching I can find.
.I do not think that I alone have come to truth.
I will stand with Reformed believers and their teaching over against Kyred dogma,which is limited and inconsistent.
As I have posted you mention justification by faith alone however you have a defective understanding of the teaching.
Nothing says you have to understand it. If you choose not to study through it correctly than you can post your error right alongside of NT.Wright.
I could post 500 articles on this basic teaching but you are stubbornly set against it.
No Reformed person denies good works accompany salvation which are ordained Eph2:10.
We just understand that salvation is not by works but rather by grace receiving the good works Jesus did perfectly on our behalf.
Your confusion on justification and sanctification would be cured by a nice study of the 1689 confession of faith along with Reformed Catechisms and confession of Faith's.
There are no innocent infants.
All died in Adam....I do not deny the reality of the fall.
I do not judge or send anyone to hell as you accuse. God sends multitudes to hell which you seem to object to.
God has mercy upon elect multitudes of people who were all dead in sin.
The confessional statement stands..
Elect infants dying in infancy are saved.
The number of them is already fixed and known by God.
I trust and believe God knows those whom He has purposed to save.He will seek and save each one of them as He is not willing that any of them will perish.
So you can make false accusations against me all day but God's elect will all be saved no matter what you say. Those passed over will perish in their sins not matter what you post.
Multitudes will be cast into outer darkness so you might want to get out and witness to a soul or two

 

[Yeshua1]

Bible support?

The only other alternative would be that all are damned then, as all are born in Adam, and none of them can receive jesus as lord thru faith!@
King david was looking forward to meeting His dead infant son, and doubt that would be in hell!

 

[Yeshua1]

I never heard of any Reformed Christian who believes that. I have never heard of any hyper-Calvinist who believes it, though possibly there may be some somewhere. Do you have a quote since you seem so sure about it?
@Iconoclast posted an extract from the 1689 Confession of faith which I repeat:
From the 1689 Confession of faith 10:3.
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3-8 )

I'll throw in another text: Genesis 18:25. 'Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?' Of course He will!

The big question would be are some or all babes elected, and that is answer literally "only God knows"

 

[Yeshua1]

Firstly,
I want everyone who reads this to understand one thing...
I would very much wish the Lord to save aborted babies, infants who die before they have a chance to hear the Gospel, and many others with no capacity for understanding of any kind...

But the truth is,
I simply cannot find such a loop hole in all of God's words that automatically gives certain people a free pass regarding their sins.

So, if people here believe that this is true, I'll need to see what God's word says about all that, if you have any references.
So far as I know, there is nothing in the Scriptures that declare what you've stated above, Dave, and nothing that says that we are not all sinners.

Scripture says that no one outside of Christ will be saved.
No one who does not believe on Him, is saved.

NOT a free pass, as what was required to allow God to save all babes was the death of Lord jesus on their behalf!

 

[Yeshua1]

Finally,

How is it that adult Muslims, Hindus, Shintos, Buddhists, Hebrews, Satanists and pagans are not considered as saved by many here, but their infants somehow are?
Am I understanding some of you when you state that unbelieving infants are automatically saved?

This, my friends, is alien to the Scriptures.

Again, as much as I would like to see the Lord save all sorts of people, I don't have any say on the matter.
He has the final say ( and the only say ), and nothing you or I can do will change that.
He says that only those who believe on Christ, repent of their sins and confess Him and His Son, are saved.

That is what the Scriptures say, and for us to go beyond that is to teach something that the Bible does not declare...
The salvation of those who have not believed on Christ.

ALL babies are aborted or born in the image of Adam, so to use your logic, cannot place faith in Jesus to save them, so all damned!
And yes, all aborted and babies of unsaved included in salvation!

 

[Yeshua1]

"kyredneck,



Hello Kyred,
You are not correct here, and this article might be helpful to see why;

The Doctrine of Rewards: The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ | Bible.org

In other words, it is a reward seat and portrays a time of rewards or loss of rewards following examination, but it is not a time of punishment where believers are judged for their sins. Such would be inconsistent with the finished work of Christ on the Cross because He totally paid the penalty for our sins. Chafer and Walvoord have an excellent word on this view:

With reference to sin, Scripture teaches that the child of God under grace shall not come into judgment (3

Again, Chafer writes concerning the Bema, “It cannot be too strongly emphasized that the judgment is unrelated to the problem of sin, that it is more for the bestowing of rewards than the rejection of failure.”4



Kyred...I am not sure you understand that teaching as that justified person will have "good works" as you described in your Romans 2 quote.
What you are posting is along the lines of NT, Wright and the New perspectives on Paul. I do not think you are intending to do that.

He has posted before though that good works and faith justify!

 

[atpollard]

Do ALL reformed people believe the aborted babies and miscarried babies spend an eternity burning in hell?

"All reformed people" have no single belief on the subject.

I have no idea, nor do I lose sleep over the question.

• Have aborted babies "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead" and been made righteous by their belief and saved by their confession? [Romans 10:9-10] If not, then God would be just to send them to hell under the Federal Headship curse of Adam.
• Is God glorified by extending grace (unmerited mercy and favor) to aborted children and drawing them to Himself in heaven? If so, then God would be merciful to snatch them from hell under the Federal Headship of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Bible does not clearly address the issue. Its purpose is to call the living to a knowledge of our creator.

So the real question is ... Do I trust GOD to be GOOD and do the right thing with aborted babies?
To which I answer:

"YES, I TRUST GOD! (whatever He does will be the right thing)".​

 

[SavedByGrace]

The only other alternative would be that all are damned then, as all are born in Adam, and none of them can receive jesus as lord thru faith!@
King david was looking forward to meeting His dead infant son, and doubt that would be in hell!

you are assuming that David's son is part of the "elect", which is no more than theological speculation!

 

[Yeshua1]

you are assuming that David's son is part of the "elect", which is no more than theological speculation!

Nope, assuming david was, and that him and his son were to be reunited!

 

[atpollard]

I don't think the OT has a strong Heaven-Hell emphasis. It tends to focus on a living-grave contrast of two states. Thus the emphasis on people being killed for sins.

I think David was simply stating an obvious fact that the baby was not going to return to life, but David would eventually join him in the grave. It probably included hope of a reunion in some afterlife, but it was not an explicit claim that the baby and David would both be reunited in Heaven at the throne of God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Nope, assuming david was, and that him and his son were to be reunited!

There is no doubt that David will be in heaven, but just because he is part of the "saved", does not mean this his son is. It is like saying that any Pastor's kids will be saved, on the basis that they are the Pastor's kids!

Let every mother and father know assuredly that it is well with the child, if God has taken it away from you in its infant days. You never heard its declaration of faith; it was not capable of such a thing. It was not baptised into the Lord Jesus Christ. It was not capable of giving that ‘answer of a good conscience towards God'; nevertheless, you may rest assured that it is well with the child, well in a higher and a better sense than it is well with yourselves. The child is ‘well’ without limitation, without exception, infinitely and eternally.

https://www.metropolitantabernacle....on-Charles-Spurgeon/Sword-and-Trowel-Magazine

 

[SavedByGrace]

I don't think the OT has a strong Heaven-Hell emphasis. It tends to focus on a living-grave contrast of two states. Thus the emphasis on people being killed for sins.

I think David was simply stating an obvious fact that the baby was not going to return to life, but David would eventually join him in the grave. It probably included hope of a reunion in some afterlife, but it was not an explicit claim that the baby and David would both be reunited in Heaven at the throne of God.

what are you on about? WHY would David take any comfort knowing that one day he would join his dead son "in the grave"? WHAT Hope is this? It is without any doubt that David is looking to his eternal rest with the Lord in heaven. The guarantee of his son also being in heaven, is the Bible basis that ALL children who die in infancy will be saved, and not as the Reformed wrongly teach, that only the "elect" infants will be saved, and those non elect will be damned to eternal punisment! This teaching is what Paul calls, "a doctrine of demons", and Anathema!

 

[atpollard]

what are you on about? WHY would David take any comfort knowing that one day he would join his dead son "in the grave"? WHAT Hope is this?

Let's try ACTUALLY READING WHAT IT SAYS:

2 Samuel 12:16-23 [NKJV]

16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 So the elders of his house arose and went to him, to raise him up from the ground. But he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. For they said, "Indeed, while the child was alive, we spoke to him, and he would not heed our voice. How can we tell him that the child is dead? He may do some harm!"

19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" And they said, "He is dead."

20 So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food."

22 And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23 "But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."
​

So as you say:
"What are YOU on about?"
Where does it mention David taking any comfort anywhere in this scripture?
Where does David speak of any future "HOPE"?