A Question regarding KJVO

[JD731]

Abraham

Noah

I have an answer for you but first of all, let me be sure what you are arguing. Are you contending that God has not chosen preaching to save the hearer, like he said, (no scripture had been written in the days of Noah and Abraham) or are you arguing that God just reaches down and saves someone at his own discretion without them having prior knowledge of him from some other justified men?

Further, let me say that salvation is defined and accomplished in the NT and Noah and Abraham were both justified in the OT times but they were not saved according to that definition given to us in the NT.

 

[Yeshua1]

Somewhere on this very board, I have spoken against the New World Translation, the "Clear Word Bible", the Living Bible with its cusswords, and expressed my dislike for "dynamic equivalence" translations.
And YOU must be satisfied with closeness, as a close examination of your KJV compared with the best translations of many Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic words or phrases will reveal a large number of differences.




It's a translation of the Hebrew Masoretic Texts & Beza's revision of the Textus Receptus, with only some 20 mss. being used altogether, with some 5K mss. or parts of mss.being available now.




I base that statement upon common sense. God could've given His word in Goofoffistanese had He so chosen.




Guess the phrase "These truths are self-evident" holds no meaning for you. Fact is, you simply cannot support nor justify your KJVO myth, so you seek a different bunny trail, to attack the messenger since you can't defeat the message.

There is No Greek text on Earth that corresponds exactly word for work with any Kjv edition!

 

[Marooncat79]

1. Paul states it plainly w/o the preaching of the Gospel shall no flesh be justified

I am saying God preached to Abram

2. What is you point about OT Saints?

 

[Marooncat79]

Yes. There are very few exceptions where God did not use others to bring us to Christ

 

[JD731]

The Bible and the Holy Spirit saves the lost sinner, correct? Cannot the person read the scriptures and hav the Holy Spirit do His salvation work there then?

If your understanding of the work of God in salvation differs from mine then post your logic and reasoning from the scriptures that has led you to believe what you do. I have laid out my logic and reasoning. Let's hope that everyone who has a doctrine has thought it through, especially if they are on a forum like this trying to teach others. .Eternity could be affected by our words.

 

[Yeshua1]

If your understanding of the work of God in salvation differs from mine then post your logic and reasoning from the scriptures that has led you to believe what you do. I have laid out my logic and reasoning. Let's hope that everyone who has a doctrine has thought it through, especially if they are on a forum like this trying to teach others. .Eternity could be affected by our words.

What man saved paul. save for the Lord Jesus Himself?

 

[JD731]

1. Paul states it plainly w/o the preaching of the Gospel shall no flesh be justified

I am saying God preached to Abram

2. What is you point about OT Saints?

How about making a biblical case for those points?

2. What is you point about OT Saints?

The scriptures of the NT declares to the Hebrews, the genealogical line of both Abraham and Noah, that without the shedding of blood there is no remission. He is not speaking of any blood, but the blood of the perfect sacrifice who is able by a one time offering of his own blood to propitiate God for sin of al the justified believers of the past and all who will believe God now and in the future. It is God who justifies those who believes what he says to them, and it is our Lord Jesus Christ who died for us and whose blood washes away our sins.

Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (If you have a KJV Bible your sins are washed away but not all bibles say that)

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Going back to the OP. The search for the KJV in another language seems to me to be based on a faulty premise. The premise being the KJV is the only inspired Scripture even to the point of superseding the Hebrew and Greek.

 

[Keith Mullins]

That's exactly the point of the entire thread. How can the KVJ be the only authoritve Bible when only a portion of the world's population.

Unless you buy into the previously posted response where if you don't speak English you're unsaved and unsaved people shouldn't have Bibles.

 

[JD731]

That's exactly the point of the entire thread. How can the KVJ be the only authoritve Bible when only a portion of the world's population.

Unless you buy into the previously posted response where if you don't speak English you're unsaved and unsaved people shouldn't have Bibles.

If that is a legitimate argument post NT scriptures, then it sure would be pre NT scriptures, when only the Jews had a bible written in their language. Reading the comments by people on this thread is convincing proof that no thought goes into the reasoning and logic they present here. This includes you particularly Keith Mullins.

 

[Keith Mullins]

If that is a legitimate argument post NT scriptures, then it sure would be pre NT scriptures, when only the Jews had a bible written in their language. Reading the comments by people on this thread is convincing proof that no thought goes into the reasoning and logic they present here. This includes you particularly Keith Mullins.

Not sure exactly what you are challenging me on. The fact that KJV can't be the ONLY true word of God? Pretty simple, it not the original.

If it's the fact that you don't have to speak English to be saved? Not worthy of a response.

If it's that the Bible can benefit unsaved? Can't really prove with scripture since it didn't exist. But #1 it showed me that I was lost and unable to grasp what it was telling me, thus drawing me to a Bible preaching Church. The Bible verses would be:
Romans 10:17
[17]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Would you argue that the scriptures are NOT the word of God? And before you shout Roman's 10:14 realize that the two can work together along with the Holy Ghost.
Also,
2 Timothy 3:16
[16]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Thank God for it's correction on me when I was lost.

So, let's get down to the brass tax. Is the KJV the ONLY Bible that is the infallible Word of God? Only 1 word answer required, Yes or no?

 

[JD731]

Going back to the OP. The search for the KJV in another language seems to me to be based on a faulty premise. The premise being the KJV is the only inspired Scripture even to the point of superseding the Hebrew and Greek.

Do you believe the world began the year you were born? It seems that way to me when I read what some here write. One thing I have learned is that all 4000 years of time before the sending of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was preparation to teach the world many wonderful truths about God. Four thousand years and only one bible. I bet if you were God it would not have been done that way. You would probably have given each nation a bible right from the start and when Jesus came in the beginning of the 5th millennium, everybody would be ready to receive him. <<< sarcasm off >>>

The world, creation, was 3500 years old before God wrote a single word that we call scripture. Moses is the man who wrote it and he was a picture and type of the prophet that was to come and he taught the world more about God than any other man. He gave the people of God the law of God in stone. This is why all men die. It is because the law of God cannot be changed and it cannot be kept by Adam's fallen race. So, thankfully, we have this wonderful contrasting type between Moses and Jesus. I will quote it for you and hope it does not go over your head because you are stuck on hatred of God having one bible and getting to choose who he wants to preach it.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is Jesus Christ who will write the law on fleshly tables of the heart.

1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some [others], epistles of commendation to you, or [letters] of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I do not preach that the KJV bible is the way to heaven. I teach that Jesus Christ is the way to heaven. He is a person. He is the son of God. He is the savior. One could have a thousand KJV bibles and not have Jesus Christ dwelling in their heart. The possession of KJV bibles would do him no good. But no one can have Jesus Christ living in their heart and die.

Having said that, We would not have the knowledge of God without the OT figures and types. The physical things of God are designed to teach us spiritual truths. That is something we learn about God. These types depend on words because the words convey the truths. This is one reason God says in 1 Corinthians 2 that we have the mind of Christ and we must compare spiritual things with spiritual to know his deep things. This requires we have every word of God in whatever language we are studying. This does not mean that God has preserved these types in every language on the earth. We have learned that it is not his way by reading the OT scriptures.

I could give a hundred types along with their antitypes as examples but I will give just 3 of simple types to illustrate how God hides his truths and reveals them later. The physical illustrating the spiritual. Consider the "as" and "so" verses of scripture. The as is the physical type that can be observed and the so is the spiritual that it pictures.

Joh 3:14 And AS Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even SO must the Son of man be lifted up:1 5 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Now God wanted to demonstrate his deliverance from sin by how he delivered from the deadly bite of the serpent. Thousands were dying from the bite of the fiery serpent and there were more than a million Israelites in the camp. This means they could not all see the pole on which the serpent was lifted up but they had to come to where they could see it and look and they would live. It was a brass (brass stands for judgement in the scriptures) replica of the serpent that hung on that pole. Following is a comparison verse.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
It does not say we will be made the righteousness of God IN him, but that we MIGHT be made the righteousness of God in him. One must come and look.

Mt 24:27 For AS the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; SO shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 12:40 For AS Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; SO shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Lu 11:30 For AS Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, SO shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Check out Romans 5 and note how many as and so verses are in that chapter.

There is going to be a penalty for those who cavalierly obscure the truths of God that can only be preserved in his choice of words by treating them like you fellows do.

 

[JD731]

Not sure exactly what you are challenging me on. The fact that KJV can't be the ONLY true word of God? Pretty simple, it not the original.

If it's the fact that you don't have to speak English to be saved? Not worthy of a response.

If it's that the Bible can benefit unsaved? Can't really prove with scripture since it didn't exist. But #1 it showed me that I was lost and unable to grasp what it was telling me, thus drawing me to a Bible preaching Church. The Bible verses would be:
Romans 10:17
[17]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Would you argue that the scriptures are NOT the word of God? And before you shout Roman's 10:14 realize that the two can work together along with the Holy Ghost.

I made my points clearly and precisely and there is no use of doing it again. I will say here that if you are claiming the very first Christian influence you ever had was a bible drawing you to a bible believing church is a claim no one will believe. I do not want to be insulting towards you, but that is ridiculous.

Also,
2 Timothy 3:16
[16]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Thank God for it's correction on me when I was lost.

So, let's get down to the brass tax. Is the KJV the ONLY Bible that is the infallible Word of God? Only 1 word answer required, Yes or no?

Fine tune your argument somewhat. You are quoting a verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God yet you would only say the various translations are scripture if it it is what it takes to win an argument. Otherwise you would say that only the originals, (which we don't have BTW), are inspired. That means you have never read a single word of inspired scripture in your life, and worse, you never will.

And yes, I believe the KJV is the preserved word of God in the English language. Whether God has preserved the inspiration of his word in another language is a question I cannot answer. I can not read another language and I cannot compare the words in the verses. I can say this though, God has not called the Asians or the Africans to work out his purposes in this age. God's pathway is always from the east to the west and Paul's ministry to the gentiles consisted of 3 missionary journeys to the west. God chose who he would send his message to and who would receive it and who would preach it to the rest of the world. I can observe that much. He also chose what language he would preserve his word in and obscuring his truths and diminishing it's influence by continued never ending translations is a satanic plot.

1 Now these [are] the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

These are western nations.

 

[Keith Mullins]

I made my points clearly and precisely and there is no use of doing it again. I will say here that if you are claiming the very first Christian influence you ever had was a bible drawing you to a bible believing church is a claim no one will believe. I do not want to be insulting towards you, but that is ridiculous.




Fine tune your argument somewhat. You are quoting a verse that says all scripture is given by inspiration of God yet you would only say the various translations are scripture if it it is what it takes to win an argument. Otherwise you would say that only the originals, (which we don't have BTW), are inspired. That means you have never read a single word of inspired scripture in your life, and worse, you never will.

And yes, I believe the KJV is the preserved word of God in the English language. Whether God has preserved the inspiration of his word in another language is a question I cannot answer. I can not read another language and I cannot compare the words in the verses. I can say this though, God has not called the Asians or the Africans to work out his purposes in this age. God's pathway is always from the east to the west and Paul's ministry to the gentiles consisted of 3 missionary journeys to the west. God chose who he would send his message to and who would receive it and who would preach it to the rest of the world. I can observe that much. He also chose what language he would preserve his word in and obscuring his truths and diminishing it's influence by continued never ending translations is a satanic plot.

1 Now these [are] the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

These are western nations.

I have nowhere stated that the KJV is not God's word. You assume meaning where none is stated nor implied.
Thank you for finally admitting that the KJV is not the ONLY version of God's word.

As far as God not moving in the East, you may want to broaden your scope. I'm so glad that God left out Asians and Africans. Aren't you?

 

[JD731]

What man saved paul. save for the Lord Jesus Himself?

I am disappointing with the implication of your question.You cannot produce a statement that I have made that suggests that men saves other men. I have been careful to exalt the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord and the only way of salvation. However, Paul heard the entire sermon of Stephan in Jerusalem, and participated in his murder prior to the encounter with Jesus Christ on the Damascus Road. To infer that he was ignorant of the claims of Jesus Christ and did not understand the preachers he heard is not demonstrating any understanding of the events of those days.

 

[JD731]

I have nowhere stated that the KJV is not God's word. You assume meaning where none is stated nor implied.
Thank you for finally admitting that the KJV is not the ONLY version of God's word.

As far as God not moving in the East, you may want to broaden your scope. I'm so glad that God left out Asians and Africans. Aren't you?

You are not trying to follow the logic and you (purposely) do not comprehend what I have said.

Do you realize that you have not attempted to show any scriptural reasoning and logic for whatever it is that you believe about God? I have made several provable statements to you that you have squarely rejected as being true but you have not given a scriptural reason why. Now, did Paul go west on all his missionary journeys to the gentiles, to whom he was sent by God or did he not? The honest answer is "yes, he did," which brings me to ask you why then do you reject it?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Do you believe the world began the year you were born? It seems that way to me when I read what some here write. One thing I have learned is that all 4000 years of time before the sending of the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was preparation to teach the world many wonderful truths about God. Four thousand years and only one bible. I bet if you were God it would not have been done that way. You would probably have given each nation a bible right from the start and when Jesus came in the beginning of the 5th millennium, everybody would be ready to receive him.

This is so far afield from my original post, that I am at a loss on how to answer it

 

[Logos1560]

I am sorry, L1560, but your comments are not evidence of what you claim. When someone champions a dynamic equivalence of what they say is absolutely the words of God, The Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, then present arguments in favor of other men altering those words by replacing them with their own, (editing) and then have the gall to say those men have accurately translated those words into the English language, that man at the very least has a problem with reasoning and logic. Isn't that a description of yourself?

No, you do not describe my scripturally-based position. You did not discuss what I actually state and assert. You invent a bogus straw-man distortion or misrepresentation that does not at all describe my position. I do not champion dynamic equivalence.

Perhaps human KJV-only reasoning attempts to justify or rationalize the actual non-literal, dynamic equivalent renderings found in the KJV. In agreement with clear scriptural truth, I maintain that the same exact standards/measures should be applied justly. When KJV-only advocates will accept non-literal, non-word-for-word, dynamic equivalent renderings or paraphrases in the KJV, they would be guilty of unrighteous judgment when they condemn other English Bible translations for the same thing.

 

[Logos1560]

The KJV is not a translation of the same manuscripts of most of the modern versions, and you know that.
.

The KJV is based on multiple, textually-varying printed original-language texts that are based on multiple, textually-varying manuscripts with some addition of a few readings from the Latin Vulgate. The KJV followed an edited NT text that may have as many as 1800 minority readings and that may have some conjectures found in no known Greek NT manuscripts.

The NKJV, KJ2000, and some other English Bible translations are a translation of the same multiple original-language texts as the 1560 Geneva Bible and the 1611 KJV are.

The Scriptures do not state nor teach that the word of God is bound to the inconsistent textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of doctrinally-unsound, imperfect Church of England critics in 1611.

 

[Logos1560]

. He also chose what language he would preserve his word in

God chose which languages He would preserve His word in when He chose the languages in which He gave His word by inspiration to the prophets and apostles. What the Scriptures teach concerning preservation directly concerns the exact specific words given by inspiration to the prophets and apostles.
God does not say that it would be different words that He preserves instead of the specific words He gave by inspiration to the prophets and apostles.

God has not said that He changed those original languages of Scripture to English as you seem to assume or suggest incorrectly and without any scriptural basis. God's word had been translated into English many years before 1611. It is a fact that the English in the KJV does not preserve every original-language word of Scripture by giving one English word for each and every word in every verse. The KJV does not preserve word-for-word every word of its multiple original-language texts. The KJV translators themselves acknowledged that they did not provide an English rendering for some original-language words of Scripture, and they acknowledged that they added many words in English for which they had no original-language words of Scripture. Perhaps you are changing the meaning of preservation in trying to claim it for the KJV.