A rather complete list of warning Scriptures against OSAS

[BobRyan]

(Matt 13)

No root - Who is the root in all of the Scriptures? If one doesn't have a root, is he one of God's? No. He has nothing to support him - our support comes from God, not from ourselves. Remember HE is the vine and we are the branches. It is the same with the fruit. We do not provide the fruit but the Spirit does. If we have no fruit, there is no Spirit in us. Both of these are those who, like in Matthew 7 say that they are Christian - even for just a time - but they are not new creations. They are the same as they ever were and do not have the Spirit of God in them.

(Matt 18)


So if God forgives your sins when you are saved, He takes that back because we didn't forgive? Is our forgiving others a condition of our salvation or is it a result of our salvation?

In Matt 13 - death is the starting point - the word of God is sown - and some "spring to life". That is not possible "For the dead".

Springing to life and remaining alive - is the successful case.

Springing to life and then dying out - is among the failing case. In other cases the failing example is one where no life at all results.

That is pretty hard to bend into "OSAS" for those that spring to life.

In Matt 18 - as your response points out - there is no way around the "forgiveness revoked" lesson that Christ teaches there.

"So shall My Heavenly Father do unto you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart". Matt 18.

Forgiveness is full and complete in Matt 18 - and it is on the basis of that full and complete "experienced" forgiveness that the unforgiving servant was "expected" to forgive others. When he fails to continue in that line of walk - then his forgiveness is revoked.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[annsni]

In Matt 13 - death is the starting point - the word of God is sown - and some "spring to life". That is not possible "For the dead".

Springing to life and remaining alive - is the successful case.

Springing to life and then dying out - is among the failing case. In other cases the failing example is one where no life at all results.

That is pretty hard to bend into "OSAS" for those that spring to life.

In Matt 18 - as your response points out - there is no way around the "forgiveness revoked" lesson that Christ teaches there.

"So shall My Heavenly Father do unto you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart". Matt 18.

Forgiveness is full and complete in Matt 18 - and it is on the basis of that full and complete "experienced" forgiveness that the unforgiving servant was "expected" to forgive others. When he fails to continue in that line of walk - then his forgiveness is revoked.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't see any "now you have it, now you don't" in either passage. A new creation - a child adopted into God's family - doesn't spring up then go away. That just doesn't happen. If I had a garden and I was growing tomatoes, I'd not say that the tomato plants that died away had life in them. I guess I just see the whole of Scripture and the solid, firm words that God has for those who become His that I do not read into these passages that God tries to adopt us but fails because of our doings. Instead I see that He creates whole new creatures that have a different nature, a different bent and different fruit than the world has. I don't see support for being able to go backwards from that. I see straying from the sheepfold but what does God do in that case? He searches, finds and brings back the lost lamb. THAT is the God I serve.

 

[steaver]

I don't see any "now you have it, now you don't" in either passage. A new creation - a child adopted into God's family - doesn't spring up then go away. That just doesn't happen. If I had a garden and I was growing tomatoes, I'd not say that the tomato plants that died away had life in them. I guess I just see the whole of Scripture and the solid, firm words that God has for those who become His that I do not read into these passages that God tries to adopt us but fails because of our doings. Instead I see that He creates whole new creatures that have a different nature, a different bent and different fruit than the world has. I don't see support for being able to go backwards from that. I see straying from the sheepfold but what does God do in that case? He searches, finds and brings back the lost lamb. THAT is the God I serve.

Amen! If one studies the bible's definition of born of God, they will not read into these passages that which is not there.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't see any "now you have it, now you don't" in either passage. A new creation - a child adopted into God's family - doesn't spring up then go away.

The claim is that no one who truly "comes to life" will ever die back.

The test of the claim is what we find in the Bible.

We all know that the lost are "dead" and do not have a way to "bring themselves to life". Coming "to life" - springing to life is only through the act of God in the gospel.

If we say that springing to life - is to "remain in the lost state" - then to "remain in life" is to "remain lost".

It cannot be that perseverance in being lost - is the definition of being saved.

It cannot be that failure to persevere in being lost - is a bad thing.

Thus if the state of "life" in Matt 13 is the state of being born again - saved - then failure to persevere in that state - is bad.

But if the state of "life" in Matt 13 is really just some unknown state of "being lost" then persevering in remaining alive - is just perseverance in some as yet unknown state of being lost.

You can't have it both ways saying that being alive is not being saved - but choosing is persevere in being alive - is-

That just doesn't happen. If I had a garden and I was growing tomatoes, I'd not say that the tomato plants that died away had life in them.

That seems like an odd statement.

Many people would argue that if the plants spring to life and die out - that they need to promote whatever it is that brings them life - and avoid whatever it is that caused death.

Rather than claim that this is the "Same" as ground that never allowed the seeds to spring up to start with - as if we have nothing to learn or change or promote vs restrict.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Amen! If one studies the bible's definition of born of God, they will not read into these passages that which is not there.

In an earlier post you state that you are a 1 point Calvinist - thus that you do agree that "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" in John 12:32 is in fact the real "ALL" and that the "God so loved the WORLD" claim of John 3:16 is the real "world" of ALL mankind and not the arbitrarily selected few of Matt 7 for Calvinists.

If so - how is it that you never make your case to the many posts by Calvinists here who argue 100% the other way around?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Arminian can know that he is saved today - with 100% assurance - but cannot know that 10 years from today he will choose to persevere and will remain saved.

The 1, 3 and 5 point Calvinists cannot even know that until they see that they persevere 10 years from today so that they do not retro-delete their present day assurance.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

In an earlier post you state that you are a 1 point Calvinist - thus that you do agree that "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" in John 12:32 is in fact the real "ALL" and that the "God so loved the WORLD" claim of John 3:16 is the real "world" of ALL mankind and not the arbitrarily selected few of Matt 7 for Calvinists.

If so - how is it that you never make your case to the many posts by Calvinists here who argue 100% the other way around?

in Christ,

Bob

Oh, I have had plenty of arguments here with 5 pointers, and some of my good friends at church are such as well. While I do see the P in the scriptures, I just don't see the first 4 points as being so clear. I talk about it with my friends, but we never get all bent outa shape over it. It is a non-essential between us, for we both teach Christian values and doctrines of sanctification.

 

[steaver]

The Arminian can know that he is saved today - with 100% assurance - but cannot know that 10 years from today he will choose to persevere and will remain saved.

The 1, 3 and 5 point Calvinists cannot even know that until they see that they persevere 10 years from today so that they do not retro-delete their present day assurance.

in Christ,

Bob

And what about the 2 and 4 pointer?

 

[evangelist-7]

Rather than picking and choosing, I'll go right for the first 5.

Super, is your hubby a Christian, or does he just eat BBQ?

I have decided to respond with love, tact, etc. and I’m quite proud of myself for it.

1) Verse 21 starts a new paragraph. We don’t know who Jesus is speaking about,
but He never knew them because they did not do the will of the Father.
You need to check and see exactly what God’s will is for BACs.
Perhaps that requires going through the Bible again, but Google is easier.

2) This just handles the case of a BAC who has denied Jesus before men.
Naturally, you say it’s impossible, but just wait for the great tribulation.

3) It says #2 receives the word of God with joy, yet …
It says #3 heard the word, but became unfruitful ... and we know all about that …
John 15:1-6 • Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

4) It just says what you can do so that God will not forgive your sins (at the end?).
To be constantly forgiven, I suggest that you understand 1 John 1:9.

5) You have changed it from one to every single human being.

I will admit that my first 5 are far from being the best consecutive 5.
.

 

[evangelist-7]

THAT is the God I serve.

Well, I serve the God who has demonstrated 3 stages of grace to me:
1) for me (anyone at all really) to have a chance to be with Him in heaven
2) for His free gift of grace-faith-righteousness-salvation
3) for forgiving my sins when I confess them and repent of them, 1 John 1:9

#3 is the part that I don't see Baptists understanding because they don't mention it.
Of course, if you're OSAS, who needs confessing and repenting, right?
.

 

[evangelist-7]

If one studies the bible's definition of born of God, they will not read into these passages that which is not there.

Yes, I know about the born of God, the adoption, the promises, etc.

But, IMO, these only concern those who were elected before the foundation of the world.
IMO, these ones are NOT all BACs ... all BACs are not in this group.
These elect are the overcomers of Romans 8:28-30 and mentioned in Rev chapters 2-3, etc.

I see it this way because of ALL of the warnings and threats!
I don't see these warnings aimed only at non-believers in the churches.
Everyone tells me that all 1st C. church members were baptized believers!
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[steaver]

Well, I serve the God who has demonstrated 3 stages of grace to me:
1) for me (anyone at all really) to have a chance to be with Him in heaven
2) for His free gift of grace-faith-righteousness-salvation
3) for forgiving my sins when I confess them and repent of them, 1 John 1:9

#3 is the part that I don't see Baptists understanding because they don't mention it.
Of course, if you're OSAS, who needs confessing and repenting, right?
.

How often would you say you sin evangel? About once a year, once a month, once a week, once a day, a few times a day?

 

[annsni]

Super, is your hubby a Christian, or does he just eat BBQ?

I have decided to respond with love, tact, etc. and I’m quite proud of myself for it.

Pride goeth before the fall you know.

1) Verse 21 starts a new paragraph. We don’t know who Jesus is speaking about,
but He never knew them because they did not do the will of the Father.
You need to check and see exactly what God’s will is for BACs.
Perhaps that requires going through the Bible again, but Google is easier.

Yes, it starts a new paragraph for us in English but there was no paragraphs in the original languages. Is it a new thought or a continuation? They never did the will of the Father because they never knew Him. It's not a believer that He's speaking to but the world.

2) This just handles the case of a BAC who has denied Jesus before men.
Naturally, you say it’s impossible, but just wait for the great tribulation.

Did Peter lose his salvation?

3) It says #2 receives the word of God with joy, yet …
It says #3 heard the word, but became unfruitful ... and we know all about that …
John 15:1-6 • Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.

"are not abiding in Jesus" is the key. If the Spirit abides in us, we will abide in Him.

They did not "become unfruitful" because they never bore fruit in the first place.

4) It just says what you can do so that God will not forgive your sins (at the end?).
To be constantly forgiven, I suggest that you understand 1 John 1:9.

I do understand 1 John 1:9 and confess my sins regularly. But you didn't answer my question. When we are saved, our sins are forgiven. Do you believe that we must confess every single sin after that or else we lose our salvation and go to hell? What if we are not aware of our sin? What if for some reason, I do not understand that something is a sin and I don't confess it? What if I lied and was suddenly hit by a car and never had a chance to confess? I remember growing up in the Catholic church when I was young and thinking about that with regards to confession. After confession, if I sinned before I could get back to confession and I died, I'd not go to heaven. It was a frightening belief and one I was happy to understand was a wrong belief as I read the Scriptures.

5) You have changed it from one to every single human being.

I will admit that my first 5 are far from being the best consecutive 5.

.

No, every single human being that I have the the ability to help. I can help a LOT of people around me if I had the resources but I don't. I do what I can but there are times that I've walked past a homeless person and not given them food or clothing. Am I going to hell?

 

[annsni]

Well, I serve the God who has demonstrated 3 stages of grace to me:
1) for me (anyone at all really) to have a chance to be with Him in heaven
2) for His free gift of grace-faith-righteousness-salvation
3) for forgiving my sins when I confess them and repent of them, 1 John 1:9

#3 is the part that I don't see Baptists understanding because they don't mention it.
Of course, if you're OSAS, who needs confessing and repenting, right?
.

What Baptist doesn't mention 1 John 1:9 and the fact that we should confess our sin to the One who paid for them?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In an earlier post you state that you are a 1 point Calvinist - thus that you do agree that "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" in John 12:32 is in fact the real "ALL" and that the "God so loved the WORLD" claim of John 3:16 is the real "world" of ALL mankind and not the arbitrarily selected few of Matt 7 for Calvinists.

If so - how is it that you never make your case to the many posts by Calvinists here who argue 100% the other way around?

Oh, I have had plenty of arguments here with 5 pointers, and some of my good friends at church are such as well. While I do see the P in the scriptures, I just don't see the first 4 points as being so clear. I talk about it with my friends, but we never get all bent outa shape over it. It is a non-essential between us, for we both teach Christian values and doctrines of sanctification.

Ok - however Biblicist on this board has been starting thread after thread on this idea that God does not love everyone enough to actually draw them to himself - even though John 12:32 says "I will draw ALL unto Me".

My curiosity arises when I found that there are others on this board who do not agree with that - but are not engaged in that discussion.

It makes it appear that only Arminians would differ with Biblicist.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

But, IMO, these only concern those who were elected before the foundation of the world.
IMO, these ones are NOT all BACs ... all BACs are not in this group.

Well, Paul's opinion is that all who are chosen before the foundation of the wolrd are all "chosen TO SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirt and beleif of the truth" (2 Thes. 2:13) and NONE "of all" that come to Christ in faith shall be lost - Jn. 6:37,39.

 

[sag38]

Seminary Class 101: Here class is a textbook example of prooftexting......

Matt 7:21-23 • Jesus only “knows” those who do Father God’s will; all others are practicing lawlessness.
Matt 10:33 • Whoever denies Jesus before men He will also deny before His Father in heaven.
Matt 13:18-23 • 2 people types (no root, unfruitful) come to eternal life, and then return to the lost state.
Matt 18:21-35, Mark 11:25-26 • Forgive men’s sins against you, or God won’t forgive your sins against Him.
Matt 25:44-46 • Those who do not help even one needy soul will go into everlasting punishment.
Mark 8:35-36 • Whoever desires to save his (old) life, or gain the whole world, will lose his soul.
Mark 9:43-48 • Get rid of whatever causes you to sin; it will cause you to be cast into hell fire.
Mark 13:13 • But he who endures with his faith to the end (of his life) shall be saved eternally …
… also see Matt 10:22, Col 1:22-23, Heb 10:35-39, Rev 2:10.
Luke 9:23-25 • Whoever does not deny himself for Jesus’ sake will be destroyed (eternal death).
Luke 14:26-33 • Jesus warns prospective believers how difficult and costly it is to be His disciple …
… will they have enough to finish this life of placing Him above all else, bearing their crosses, etc.?
John 12:25 • He who loves his life in this world will lose it (eternal life) later.
John 15:1-6 • Christians who do not bear fruit (are not abiding in Jesus) are thrown into the fire.
John 17:3 • Eternal life is actually “knowing” Father God and Jesus Christ. Do you really know them?
Rom 1:29-32 • Anyone practicing such sins is deserving of death due to God’s wrath on unrighteousness.
Rom 2:5-11 • Wrath is coming to those who are unrighteously self-seeking and do not obey the truth.
Rom 6:15-23 • Be a slave of God and to righteousness for holiness, resulting in holiness and eternal life.
Rom 8:1-8 • Anyone who is carnally-minded (is living according to the flesh) will die spiritually.
Rom 8:12-13 • We are not debtors to the flesh; if we live according to the flesh, we will die (eternal death).
Rom 11:20-22 • Fear unbelief, that if you do not continue to have faith, you will be cut off like the OT Jews.
1 Cor 6:9-10 • Anyone practicing such sins is unrighteous, and will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 15:2 • You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel) … unless you believed in vain.
2 Cor 7:10 • Godly sorrow over sin leads Christians to repent, which leads to salvation.
2 Cor 13:5 • Examine and test yourself to see if you are in the faith, unless you are disqualified.
Gal 5:1-4 • Christians are warned: those who later have attempted to be justified by law,
… have been estranged from Christ and have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:19-21 • Anyone practicing such sins (the works of the flesh) will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:24 • Those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 6:7-8 • Do not be deceived: sowing to the flesh reaps corruption, sowing to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
Eph 5:3-6 • Believers practicing such sins will not inherit God’s kingdom, but will incur the wrath of God.
Eph 5:25-27 • Jesus gave Himself for a glorious Church which will be sanctified, holy, without blemish.
Phil 2:12-16 • Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, holding fast the word of life …
… so that: (a) you may become blameless, and (b) Paul did not labor in vain concerning you.
Col 1:21-29 • Jesus’ desires (and Paul labors to warn and teach) to present “holy and blameless” and
… “perfect in Christ Jesus” those who continue in faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel.
Col 3:5-6 • Believers practicing such sins beware: the wrath of God will come upon sons of disobedience.
1 Tim 4:1 • Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith.
1 Tim 5:11-15 • Some younger widows are condemned; they cast off their first faith and turned after Satan.
1 Tim 6:9-14 • Greed and love of money drowns men in destruction and perdition …
… Instead, pursue godliness and lay hold on eternal life (and keep this command without blame).
1 Tim 6:17-19 • Commands for the rich (yes, Christians) to follow, so they may lay hold on eternal life.
Titus 1:1-3 • Faith and knowledge of the truth lead to godliness, in the hope of eternal life.
Heb 2:1-4 • Warning about drifting away: how shall we escape, if we drift and neglect so great a salvation?
Heb 3:6 • We belong to Christ, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Heb 3:12-15 • Beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, being hardened …
… through the deceitfulness of sin, for we are only partakers of Christ if we hold steadfast to the end.
Heb 3:17-19 • The OT Jews who sinned (did not obey) could not enter into God’s rest (the Promised Land).
Heb 4:1 • Let us fear lest any of us come short of entering God’s rest (God’s promise of salvation).
Heb 4:11 • Be diligent to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall according to the OT example of disobedience.
Heb 6:4-8 • Those enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit who fall away will be rejected and burned.
Heb 10:26-27 • If we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, we can expect God’s fiery judgment.
Heb 10:29-31 • The LORD will judge His people. “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
Heb 10:35-39 • Endure in the faith, and do not be like those who draw back to perdition.
Heb 12:14-15 • Pursue holiness (w/o which no one will see the Lord) lest anyone falls short of God’s grace.
Heb 12:15-17 • Many believers become defiled, and finding no place for repentance, are rejected.
James 1:12-16 • Love the Lord, endure temptation to sin; do not be deceived, sin brings forth spiritual death.
1 Pet 1:8-9 • Believing, you will receive the end of your (enduring) faith—the salvation of your souls.
2 Pet 1:10-11 • Be diligent to make your call and election sure, so you won’t stumble, but gain the kingdom.
2 Pet 2:20-22 • If Christians are overcome by worldly sins, they are worse off than they were before …
… knowing the way of righteousness, they turned from the holy commandment delivered to them.
1 John 1:9 • If we confess our sins, God will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:3-5 • We are sure that we “know” God and are “in” Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 John 2:24-25 • If God’s word does not abide in us, the Father and the Son will not abide in us …
… nor we in Them, and we will not receive the promised eternal life.
1 John 3:15 • If you hate your brother, you’re like a murderer who has no eternal life abiding in him.
Jude 1:20-21 • 3 things for Christians to do, while looking for God’s mercy unto eternal life.
Rev 2:10 • Be faithful until death and Jesus will give you the crown of (eternal) life. See Mark 13:13 above.
Rev 2:11 • He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death (eternal death).
Rev 3:5 • He who overcomes will not have his name blotted out from the Book of Life.
Rev 21:8 • Anyone practicing such sins will go into the lake of fire, which is the second death.
Rev 21:27 • Anyone practicing such sins is not in the Book of Life, and will not enter the New Jerusalem.
Rev 22:14 • Anyone who does not do God’s commandments does not have the right to the tree of life.
Rev 22:15 • Anyone practicing such sins will be outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.

The NT is filled with many proofs that the exact opposite of OSAS is true!

An interesting example … MANY verses talk about the HOPE Christians have of obtaining salvation.
Rom 5:1-5,8:23-25--Gal 5:5--Titus 1:2,3:7--Col 1:5,1:23--Heb 3:6,10:23--1 Peter 1:13,1:21,3:15--etc.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In an earlier post you state that you are a 1 point Calvinist - thus that you do agree that "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" in John 12:32 is in fact the real "ALL" and that the "God so loved the WORLD" claim of John 3:16 is the real "world" of ALL mankind and not the arbitrarily selected few of Matt 7 for Calvinists.

The context of Romans 1:19-20 and John 1:9 is not the context of John 6:44-45,65 and yet you are treating them as though they are.

Drawing as defined and explained in John 6 is in a context of a QUALFIED "ALL" (v. 45a) which is a quotation from Isa. 53:14 "ALL" of which are "children of God." That cannot be said of the context of Rom. 1:19-20 or John 1:9. The context of John 1:9 is REJECTION by his own not coming to christ in faith. The context of Rom. 1:19-20 is REJECTION not coming to Christ in faith (Rom. 1:20-22).

It is also a qualified "ALL" that demands "EVERY MAN" so taught comes to Christ in faith (v. 45b). Thus again proving he is speaking only of the "chldren of God" (Isa. 54:13). That is not the context of Rom. 1:19-20 or John 1:9 as NONE are described as coming to Christ in faith in either.

It is in a context that the SAME "him" drawn is the SAME "him" that is raised to eternal life (v. 44).

Moreover, you ignore the obvious. Only those "given" by the Father come to Christ (Jn. 6:37,39) and only those "drawn" by the Father come to Christ and in both cases "ALL" given come to Christ and "him" drawn is raised to life and is part of the "ALL" taught which "EVERY MAN" thus taught also comes to Christ (Jn. 6:44-45).

In direct contrast John 1:9 and Romans 1:19-20 are general and unqualified and deal only with the light of conscience and light of nature.

So in defense of my "one point" friend he can believe in the general drawing by conscience, nature and reason (Rom. 1:19-20) without denying the qualfied limited and restricted "drawing" that is contextually restricted to a QUALIFIED people who are "given" by the Father to the Son, who ALL come to Christ in faith and NONE are lost, who are "ALL" taught by God as the QUALIFIED "children of God" of which "EVERY MAN" comes to Christ in faith.

In regard to John 1:9, John previously defined the "light" given to all men as PHYSICAL LIFE - "In him was LIFE and THE LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN." Unless you believe Christ gives ETERNAL life to every man coming into the world, then this must refer only to PHYSICAL LIFE.

 

[evangelist-7]

annsni,

Thou sure likes to play word games and all kinds of tricks.
No thanks ... Bye!
.

 

[evangelist-7]

What Baptist doesn't mention 1 John 1:9 and the fact that we should confess our sin to the One who paid for them?

Almost everyone here in almost every post recently ... why don't you read them?

BTW, the invite in the recent tongues thread is open to you as well. Good Luck!
.