A Response to Why I am #NeverTrump

[Internet Theologian]

Votes only really matter in swing states. In safe states, they don't matter. That's a mathematical fact.

And I think you're not being fair in representing matters of conscience. I really would like to see more humility from Trump. Arrogance doesn't help (cf. Obama), and it can be dangerous. But that's only one thing.

At this moment, I'm not 100% resolved never to vote for Trump. I do have issues that bother my conscience. Mocking me is not the way to change my mind.

FTR I didn't mock you, my statement was a general statement that rightly characterizes the absurdity of those who vote for 'conscience sake'.

I don't buy the excuse, nor do others.

I'm not being fair in things of conscience? Instead of just casting aspersions with no qualification, start naming them? You don't name them, but cast a general aspersion at me specifically, but I have named things, yet I'm the one not 'being fair'?

Yes, arrogance, pay attention to that, and then throw in 'but that's only one thing' naming nothing at all specifically. Note I named specifics about Hillary. There is much more.

Yes, talk about Trumps arrogance, but pay no mind to national a security, socialist agenda, murder, corrupt, liar, thief and one who denies the threat of ISIS, ISLAM and is all for an Iran that hates Israel.

Yes, let's focus on someones arrogance.

 

[Calminian]

Trump may very well name better justices to the court (although we could easily end up with a David Souter in the end), but our kids will have a future either way.

I'm not speaking in terms of voting now. I mean from a 1000 ft view. Christians worshiped under the Roman Empire. Protestants worshiped under Catholic persecution.

Even if I vote for Trump, Trump may well lose. But God will still be on his throne, even if all the SCOTUS nominees are insanely liberal. His is the ultimate court of appeal, and we can petition it at any time. Even if the outcome isn't the preferred outcome, God can still restore the years the locusts eat.

Again, this isn't about voting. I'm just speaking generally about the election.

No one would disagree. If we're thrown off the cliff, He'll catch us one way or another. I'm just speaking of willingly throwing ourselves off. David committed murder, Solomon took everyone woman he laid eyes on, and we're worried about a guy that can be a little bombastic? We should be able to get over that, and vote for good policy.

 

[StefanM]

FTR I didn't mock you, my statement was a general statement that rightly characterizes the absurdity of those who vote for 'conscience sake'.

I don't buy the excuse, nor do others.

I'm not being fair in things of conscience? Instead of just casting aspersions with no qualification, start naming them. You don't name them, but I have, yet I'm not 'being fair'?

Yes, arrogance, pay attention to that, and then throw in 'but that's only one thing' naming nothing at all specifically. Note I named specifics about Hillary. There is much more.

Yes, talk about Trumps arrogance, but pay no mind to national a security, socialist agenda, murder, corrupt, liar, thief and one who denies the threat of ISIS, ISLAM and is all for an Iran that hates Israel.

Yes, let's focus on someones arrogance.

It's not just the arrogance. It's also recklessness in making statements. As POTUS, you have to be very cautious because every word will be parsed for hidden meaning.

The moral issues have been discussed ad nauseum, so I see no reason to repeat them. I would take this off the table entirely if he seemed to show a more repentant attitude.

National security is a concern for both. I don't think Clinton takes ISIS and radical Islam seriously enough, but I'm not sure Trump's approach will solve the issue either. I do like the idea of intense vetting (but not banning). His bombastic rhetoric on national security is very dangerous. He needs to moderate his tone. If he can do that, I'll be happy.

The wall thing is just ridiculous. Mexico isn't going to pay for the wall, and any method to try to recoup the funds from transfers to Mexico would be an administrative nightmare. I'm all for border security, but we should be honest. If we build a wall, it's going to be on our dime.

I'm also very concerned about his attacks on the press. I don't want any threats to the 1st Amendment from any party or President. He can criticize them, but his statements about strengthening laws are a bit disconcerting because they would be used by the other party eventually.

I will say that Hillary's corruption is a major, major problem. I don't blame her for Benghazi, but I do think the email scandal is a legitimate concern.

Basically, if Trump can convince me that he's a decent person who has just gone a bit far with rhetoric, if he can convince me that he won't cause foreign policy disasters that endanger the country, and if he can convince me that he's generally trustworthy, I could be convinced to vote for him.

 

[StefanM]

No one would disagree. If we're thrown off the cliff, He'll catch us one way or another. I'm just speaking of willingly throwing ourselves off. David committed murder, Solomon took everyone woman he laid eyes on, and we're worried about a guy that can be a little bombastic? We should be able to get over that, and vote for good policy.

You can see my issues in the post above. I'm open to being convinced.

 

[StefanM]

We're talking about your words, not your vote. Words matter. Influence matters. You're potentially talking to people all over the nation. The future of our kids should have the most effect on your conscience. Will you be able to look them in the eye and admit you helped create the hostile court they're living under?

This is the kind of argument that gives me something to consider.

 

[blessedwife318]

Nothing wrong with a seat at the table. That's how our government is formed. 'We The People.' We're part of the government. We've been born into the royal family.

That is not what he was offering them. He is offering them a seat at his table, his power, if they just vote for him. This is not the we the people are the government by our vote, this is I will make you more powerful, if you just vote for me.

You mean someone who offends you. You agree with him on just about everything if you're truly a Christian. You certainly agree with his Supreme Court picks. He just annoys you, so you're willing to throw the court away.

He doesn't annoy me, he scares me. I'm too familiar with history and what his kind of rhetoric can do. And yes Hilary has some scary aspects as well, she just doesn't brag about them to cheering crowds like Trump does.

No I don't agree with him that we should fund Planned Parenthood

No I don't agree with him that his sister would make a wonderful Supreme Court Judge.
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/v...trump-the-full-with-all-due-respect-interview 16:45 mark
No I don't agree with him that we should just print more money

No I don't agree with him that we should be attacking terrorist families.

No I don't agree with him that we should be torturing (more than waterbording) suspects

No I don't agree with him we should try American Citizens at Gitmo

No I don't agree with him that we should open up libel laws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9PCPtcsgnc
No I don't agree that Trans people should use whichever restroom they want
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...der-people-should-use-the-bathroom-they-want/

That's not the context I was using the verse. Romans 13 gives us insight into the purpose of governing authorities and what their role is. Even a pagan can function in this role and do it well.

Agreed, but there is nothing in there about Christians having to vote for any candidate.

This is a copout. Trump has actually provided a list of good SC picks praised by Christians and conservatives. Hillary has promised to appoint the opposite—the most anti-christians judges imaginable.

And he has walked back said list. The list was pandering pure and simple. As far as Hilary is concerned that is where the down ballot comes into play, since it is Congress that approves or denies a nomination to the court. Clinton would unify the Republicans against her. Besides the Court is not how we are going to change this country, the Gospel is how we change this country. And since I don't trust Trump to do anything that doesn't help Trump the SCOTUS card holds no weight with me.

Attacks on the 1A? Huh?

Open up libel laws.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9PCPtcsgnc
Not understanding what Freedom of the Press really is.
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/764870785634799617
Also this is slightly Ironic given Trump's relationship with the National Enquirer, but still a blatant attack on the First Amendment.

 

[Calminian]

This is the kind of argument that gives me something to consider.

Well then I'm going to lay off, brother. Hopefully you see my heart. I'm praying for Trump daily. I'd entreat you to do the same. Not a perfect man, not even close, but I like him and like his ideas. I have 5 kids, the oldest 16 down to 7. Their world is changing fast. Very worried.

 

[Calminian]

....He doesn't annoy me, he scares me. I'm too familiar with history and what his kind of rhetoric can do. And yes Hilary has some scary aspects as well, she just doesn't brag about them to cheering crowds like Trump does......

This is the part that really gets me. Trump's tough talk on terrorism scares you but Hillary's promise to kill the unborn and allow terrorists into the country doesn't? Trump gets vulgar, but Hillary promises to put anti-Christians on the country, and you're more worried about Trump?

Come on. Trump's given you a list, and put conservatives all around him, including Pence and VP. He's your only chance of avoiding a totally different world for you kids and grandkids, nothing like we've ever had before. We've never had a liberal court before. Never! You have no idea what liberals can do with that. And you're going to gleefully announce your conscience is clear? Sister, you should be convicted to the bone.

 

[blessedwife318]

This is the part that really gets me. Trump's tough talk on terrorism scares you but Hillary's promise to kills unborn babies and allow terrorists into the country doesn't? Trump gets vulgar, but Hillary promises to put anti-Christians on the country, and you're more worries about Trump's salty language?

Come on. Trump's given you a list, and put conservatives all around him, including Pence and VP. He's your only chance of avoiding a totally different world for you kids and grandkids, nothing like we've ever had before. We've never had a liberal court before. Never! You have no idea what liberals can do with that. And you're going to gleefully announce your conscience is clear? Sister, you should be convicted to the bone.

It's not his tough talk on Terrorism that scares me. I said that Hilary scares me as well just for different reasons. Ones she doesn't announce to the world unlike Trump. Although I will admit that scare is probably the wrong word to use, I think grieve would be a better and more accurate word for both of them since it's all in God's hands and He will use this election for His Own Glory.

And no he is not our only chance. The Gospel is our only chance of giving future generations a different world. I know exactly what a liberal court can do, but I also know what God can do and that is where my hope lies.

Our Country is under judgment and rightfully so, and I trust God for that, even while I grieve the state of our nation.

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[Internet Theologian]

It's not just the arrogance. It's also recklessness in making statements. As POTUS, you have to be very cautious because every word will be parsed for hidden meaning.

The moral issues have been discussed ad nauseum, so I see no reason to repeat them. I would take this off the table entirely if he seemed to show a more repentant attitude.

National security is a concern for both. I don't think Clinton takes ISIS and radical Islam seriously enough, but I'm not sure Trump's approach will solve the issue either. I do like the idea of intense vetting (but not banning). His bombastic rhetoric on national security is very dangerous. He needs to moderate his tone. If he can do that, I'll be happy.

The wall thing is just ridiculous. Mexico isn't going to pay for the wall, and any method to try to recoup the funds from transfers to Mexico would be an administrative nightmare. I'm all for border security, but we should be honest. If we build a wall, it's going to be on our dime.

I'm also very concerned about his attacks on the press. I don't want any threats to the 1st Amendment from any party or President. He can criticize them, but his statements about strengthening laws are a bit disconcerting because they would be used by the other party eventually.

I will say that Hillary's corruption is a major, major problem. I don't blame her for Benghazi, but I do think the email scandal is a legitimate concern.

Basically, if Trump can convince me that he's a decent person who has just gone a bit far with rhetoric, if he can convince me that he won't cause foreign policy disasters that endanger the country, and if he can convince me that he's generally trustworthy, I could be convinced to vote for him.

If you don't blame her for Benghazi then you need to do some research and soul searching. Start with the facts and then go Youtube the family members who blame her, and rightfully so. Then Youtube the Americans that were there who were told to stand down. Then look at how Hillary says 'at this this point, what difference does it make.

And you're focusing on Trump?

I'd say I'm amazed you don't blame her, but I'm not, this is typical of people today.

That you overlook her huge problems and concentrate on Trump constantly tells me all I need to know.

 

[Internet Theologian]

This is the part that really gets me. Trump's tough talk on terrorism scares you but Hillary's promise to kill the unborn and allow terrorists into the country doesn't? Trump gets vulgar, but Hillary promises to put anti-Christians on the country, and you're more worried about Trump?

Come on. Trump's given you a list, and put conservatives all around him, including Pence and VP. He's your only chance of avoiding a totally different world for you kids and grandkids, nothing like we've ever had before. We've never had a liberal court before. Never! You have no idea what liberals can do with that. And you're going to gleefully announce your conscience is clear? Sister, you should be convicted to the bone.

Not to mention the SCJ's she will appoint. But that is insignificant, Trump is arrogant.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Shame on Trump for wanting to go tougher than waterboarding on those who behead Christians. Tsk Tsk, what a shame! FTR I'm with him on it. This isn't heaven, and to seek justice on those who do this? I'm all for it.

 

[Calminian]

It's not his tough talk on Terrorism that scares me. I said that Hilary scares me as well just for different reasons. Ones she doesn't announce to the world unlike Trump. Although I will admit that scare is probably the wrong word to use, I think grieve would be a better and more accurate word for both of them since it's all in God's hands and He will use this election for His Own Glory.

And no he is not our only chance. The Gospel is our only chance of giving future generations a different world. I know exactly what a liberal court can do, but I also know what God can do and that is where my hope lies.

Our Country is under judgment and rightfully so, and I trust God for that, even while I grieve the state of our nation.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

If it happens it happens. That's fine, we trust God. But if we help it happen—if we're stubborn and willfully blind, and throw ourselves off an unnecessary cliff because of smug self-righteousness, that's to our shame. Maybe God will catch us maybe He won't. But at this time we have a man willing to put good judges on the court for our future generations and to fight Christian persecution around the world. We have Christians and brothers abroad in horrible situations, and Hillary will continue to forsake them, and bring the fight to us comfy American spoiled Christians who know nothing of persecution. And you are helping her!

Trump, regardless of his motives, wants to help Christians abroad, and defeat those trying to murder them. We don't have Joe Christian as an option this time around. I don't think we ever have, apart from maybe Jimmy Carter. You know 3rd party candidates will only ensure Hillary's election. The media is pushing these candidates for her. That's fine, that's what they do. But you as a Christian? How can you do this in good conscience? How can you think you're somehow more moral than Trump??

 

[Calminian]

If you don't blame her for Benghazi then you need to do some research and soul searching. Start with the facts and then go Youtube the family members who blame her, and rightfully so. Then Youtube the Americans that were there who were told to stand down. Then look at how Hillary says 'at this this point, what difference does it make.

And you're focusing on Trump?

I'd say I'm amazed you don't blame her, but I'm not, this is typical of people today.

That you overlook her huge problems and concentrate on Trump constantly tells me all I need to know.

And I hate to say this, but if Trump loses and things get really bad, I bet NeverTrumpers will be screaming the loudest. They'll be demanding rescue even though they turned their backs on their brother's and sisters worldwide when they could have done something. We American Christians are in a position of power. We have been given this by God who ordained where we all would be at this time. God help us if we throw this power away because someone annoyed us or hurt our feelings.

 

[StefanM]

If you don't blame her for Benghazi then you need to do some research and soul searching. Start with the facts and then go Youtube the family members who blame her, and rightfully so. Then Youtube the Americans that were there who were told to stand down. Then look at how Hillary says 'at this this point, what difference does it make.

And you're focusing on Trump?

I'd say I'm amazed you don't blame her, but I'm not, this is typical of people today.

That you overlook her huge problems and concentrate on Trump constantly tells me all I need to know.

Yeah, let's just insult someone who outlined his objections to your candidate but indicated a willingness to consider him.

Did I not mention Hillary's corruption is a big deal?

I could end up supporting Trump, but I'm not going to be bullied into it. Learn to realize when you have an opening and use it instead of staying in attack mode.

 

[blessedwife318]

If it happens it happens. That's fine, we trust God. But if we help it happen—if we're stubborn and willfully blind, and throw ourselves off an unnecessary cliff because of smug self-righteousness, that's to our shame. Maybe God will catch us maybe He won't. But at this time we have a man willing to put good judges on the court for our future generations and to fight Christian persecution around the world. We have Christians and brothers abroad in horrible situations, and Hillary will continue to forsake them, and bring the fight to us comfy American spoiled Christians who know nothing of persecution. And you are helping her!

Trump, regardless of his motives, wants to help Christians abroad, and defeat those trying to murder them. We don't have Joe Christian as an option this time around. I don't think we ever have, apart from maybe Jimmy Carter. You know 3rd party candidates will only ensure Hillary's election. The media is pushing these candidates for her. That's fine, that's what they do. But you as a Christian? How can you do this in good conscience? How can you think you're somehow more moral than Trump??

Here is the problem with your illustration, I think both Trump and Hilary are judgements of God. Voting for either one is jumping off the cliff to use your illustration.

I do not think I am more moral than Trump. We are all Depraved Sinners in need of a Savior.
I can vote 3rd party in good conscience because I reject the self fulfilling idea that they can't win. I can vote in good conscience because I reject the double standard of the "Morel Majority" and the Christian Colation that called for Clinton's head for his sexual immorality, while ignoring and uphold Trump. I can do so because the only argument I have seen for voting for him is SCOTUS, (which I will grant is the strongest, if you ignore his untrustworthiness) while all other arguments are against someone else.
I can do so because we are called to be separate from the works of darkness.
And Ultimately I can do so because my hope is in Jesus Christ, not in a man, or the Supreme Court, or in this country. If your conscienceis clear I'm glad, but that does not obligated me to violate mine.

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[StefanM]

And I hate to say this, but if Trump loses and things get really bad, I bet NeverTrumpers will be screaming the loudest. They'll be demanding rescue even though they turned their backs on their brother's and sisters worldwide when they could have done something. We American Christians are in a position of power. We have been given this by God who ordained where we all would be at this time. God help us if we throw this power away because someone annoyed us or hurt our feelings.

Then convince me, a "Not Trump"-er, who is at the moment not a "Never Trump"-er.

Please do so without insulting me, my intelligence, or anything else. I would prefer not to be treated like garbage for having some concerns.

Trump doesn't get a free pass on everything because of SCOTUS. I need to be convinced beyond SCOTUS alone.

 

[Tendor]

Wow! Boy! You sure told me!!

Really, I told you? I thought the whole point of this post was to show that I didn't show you. By the way, I am not a boy. I haven't been one for a while now.

 

[Tendor]

I have 5 kids. What I don't understand is, why don't Christians care about the Supreme Court anymore? That used to be the main issue Christians were concerned with. That is the future for our next generation. Now it's a secondary issue in the Church. Now we're worried about Trump maybe not turning his cheek as much as he should. Have we really become this legalistic?

The main issue for Christians should never be the Supreme Court. The main issue should be to keep the Gospel central in our lives. Who is on the Supreme Court or who is President will not matter one little bit when our eternal fate is declared.

At this time, we have one candidate that can keep the Court from going full blown anti-Christian. He has provided a list that's been praised by Christians and Conservatives. We have another candidate that's promising to put in the most anti-Christian judges imaginable on the bench. Yet the modern Church (not all of us, mind you, but a large portion of it) can't get over a little tough talk and salty language. Are we really going to throw our kid's future away because we got our feelings hurt? God have mercy on our kids if we do.

Again, what our kids future rests on is not the Supreme Court but on whether they trust in Christ.

 

[Benjamin]

The main issue for Christians should never be the Supreme Court. The main issue should be to keep the Gospel central in our lives. Who is on the Supreme Court or who is President will not matter one little bit when our eternal fate is declared.

That the Gospel should be central to a Christian’s life IN NO WAY negates the extreme importance of the issue of the Supreme Court. It is not an either/or issue. Nor would any reasonable thinker come to the conclusion that Calminian’s use of “main issue” was to imply such a fallacious claim that he was holding the issue of the Supreme Court over the importance of the Christian Gospel or even would one honestly conclude he was even making such a suggestion.

That who is on the Supreme Court will not effort our eternal fate ALSO HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with the issue, NOR does that negate the importance of this issue in the upcoming election. Just more fallacy.

It is almost unbelievable to me that some here would actually like and agree with such an obvious ridiculously fallacious argument against Calminian's argument above! Almost...