A Response to Why I am #NeverTrump

[StefanM]

The trolling seems strong today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Calminian]

I shouldn't be shocked, but I am. You should expect the "God's sovereignty" argument because it is 100% unadulterated, unspoiled biblical TRUTH. God used pagan kings who make Hillary look like one of the twelve Apostles by comparison.

If squashing one's conscience out of political pragmatism is equivalent to putting God to the test, then what, exactly, is the point of our faith? To support the Republican party, at all costs?

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36, KJV)

I'm not willing to throw myself off the mountain. I'm willing to say that we might have to face the lions, but it's better to keep our conscience clear than to compromise for political expediency. (Cf. Daniel)

The irony is, you're not just throwing yourself off the cliff ordering God's angels to catch you. You're throwing your children off.

I cherish the sovereignty of God. It keeps me sane. But I also believe in human responsibility, and not putting God to the test, especially putting my kids at risk.

 

[StefanM]

The irony is, you're not just throwing yourself off the cliff ordering God's angels to catch you. You're throwing your children off.

I cherish the sovereignty of God. It keeps me sane. But I also believe in human responsibility, and not putting God to the test, especially putting my kids at risk.

You're just wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Internet Theologian]

Again, I have to stop there are marvel. Yes, Trump can be insulting. He's a fighter, for sure. He insults at times, and is very gracious at times. But look then at the people who oppose him?

So, IOW Trump is just like a lot of people on here who will not in 'good conscience' vote for him. lolzzzz.....

Yup. And that is a fact.

 

[StefanM]

FWIW, I would not even vote for myself for POTUS, if things came to that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Calminian]

Hook, line, and sinker. Go to the 1:40 time mark.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkacz...shed-for-libya?utm_term=.muX8E3Z15#.yfnM08Y5w

That was a very weak answer and I think it's obvious why. Once you go to war, you have to unite, and be patriotic for the sake of the troops. Anytime someone says "I guess so......" that usually means no, but i'll roll with it. That's what it means when I say it. But you could hear the uneasiness in that answer.

Trump was against that war. He was for the troops and for America, but he knew the it was a bad decision. The video above bears it out.

 

[Calminian]

Agreed, and I would also add if we are going to talk about the temptations here, let's not forget that Trump's temptation to evangelicals is power, if they vote for him. http://www.christianpost.com/news/d...-great-power-higher-church-attendance-167884/

It's not power, it's freedom. Freedom is all we need to do God's work. Whether we take it or not is a different story.

Many who complain about Trump want him to propagate the gospel for them. That's not the role of governing authorities, and it's silly to try to conform them to that job. They need to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. That's it. They don't even need to be godly people.

As far as I'm concerned the only power we as Christians should be concerning ourselves with, is the power of the Gospel. If we want to change this country it is the Gospel that will do it, not the voting both (Yes I realize it's not an either or, but a both and). If we are going to talk about using our vote to affect change, we need to vote for real change (not vague hope and change/Make America Great Again), not for the lesser of two evils, which is why we are in this spot to begin with.

Amen! But we're also told to give to Caesar what is Caesar's. In Romans 13 we're told to be patriots and give to government what it asks. That's part of living the gospel. If we willfully ignore or responsibilities to government are we not a poor testimony? And will that not affect our testimony?

Again, this is why the Supreme Court is so important. It's about the future of our freedom and our children's freedom. To throw that way, because we've gotten our feelings hurt, is not loving in the least.

 

[StefanM]

That was a very weak answer and I think it's obvious why. Once you go to war, you have to unite, and be patriotic for the sake of the troops. Anyone someone says "I guess so......" that usually means no, but i'll roll with it. That's what it means when I say it. But you could hear the uneasiness in that answer.

Trump was against that war. He was for the troops and for America, but he knew the it was a bad decision.

I'll give you credit here. I agree with your assessment of Trump's view.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Calminian]

FWIW, I would not even vote for myself for POTUS, if things came to that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wouldn't either. I don't have leadership wisdom. But we need to support Trump. We need to. You need to. I'd beg you if I though it would help.

 

[StefanM]

I wouldn't either. I don't have leadership wisdom. But we need to support Trump. We need to. You need to. I'd beg you if I though it would help.

If he can show over the next month or so that he can start being more Presidential, I'll consider it. That's the best I can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Calminian]

If he can show over the next month or so that he can start being more Presidential, I'll consider it. That's the best I can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What's the biblical definition of presidential? Was King David presidential in your view? How about Solomon? Shoot, just on paper they make Trump look pretty good. No murder on his resume, to my knowledge, and he's still under a thousand wives. And he's not running to be king of Israel.

Two words. Supreme Court.

 

[StefanM]

Different era. And being anointed by God is a big deal. Trump hasn't had that privilege.

It's more that he can control himself. If he can't do that, I have no reason to expect he will make the right call on the court.

The list he released may just be a suck up list.

I need to be able to trust him. And I can't do that now. Maybe I could. I'm not ruling it completely out.

But I have to be at the point where I am not violating my conscience to do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[StefanM]

What would help greatly is a calm appeal. I was quite offended earlier. That doesn't sway anyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blessedwife318]

It's not power, it's freedom. Freedom is all we need to do God's work. Whether we take it or not is a different story.

Trump did not promise freedom, he tempted with power. He is telling them they will have a seat at the table.

Many who complain about Trump want him to propagate the gospel for them. That's not the role of governing authorities, and it's silly to try to conform them to that job. They need to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. That's it. They don't even need to be godly people.

We are called to submit to those in authority over us. That has nothing to do with voting for someone who I fundamentally disagree with. If he wins I will submit to his authority, but that still cannot compel me to vote for him.

Amen! But we're also told to give to Caesar what is Caesar's. In Romans 13 we're told to be patriots and give to government what it asks. That's part of living the gospel. If we willfully ignore or responsibilities to government are we not a poor testimony? And will that not affect our testimony?

I pay my taxes. Trump is no more entitled to my vote, than anyone else, so your give to Caeser what is Caesar is misapplied. Romans 13 is about submitting to the government in so far as that does not violate God's commands. The GOP is a private organization that has no authority on its own to compel anyone to do anything, including to vote for their candidate.

Again, this is why the Supreme Court is so important. It's about the future of our freedom and our children's freedom. To throw that way, because we've gotten our feelings hurt, is not loving in the least

The SCOTUS argument doesn't work because I don't trust Trump to do what he says. He has already walked back that list he posted since it has done the job he intended.

Trump's attacks on the 1st Amendment should make Christian's think before voting for him. We often forget that what is done by one president can be and will be expanded by another, so while Trump's attacks on the 1st Amendment may not have any adverse effects on Christians during his potential term in office, when the pendulum swings to another party it could very well be used to declare open war on Christians.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Not going to vote Trump, for 'conscience sake', but no conscience worries when allowing lying Clinton, who has accomplished nothing, is a lying murderer, puts our National Security at risk, shares classified email like it means nothing, and is probably the reason a DNC linked to Wikileaks was murdered, will make it as POTUS. There is MUCH more.

"But, you know, Trump is bombastic, and that is so turrible, and I have a conscience, you know, and Melania plagiarized."

Spare me the baloney. A vote for Trump neutralizes a vote for that criminal lying Hillary.

 

[Calminian]

Not going to vote Trump, for 'conscience sake', but no conscience worries when allowing lying Clinton, who has accomplished nothing, is a lying murderer, puts our National Security at risk, shares classified email like it means nothing, and is probably the reason a DNC linked to Wikileaks was murdered, will make it as POTUS. There is MUCH more.

"But, you know, Trump is bombastic, and that is so turrible, and I have a conscience, you know, and Melania plagiarized."

Spare me the baloney. A vote for Trump neutralizes a vote for that criminal lying Hillary.

Somehow throwing away their kid's future is easier to live with.

 

[StefanM]

Not going to vote Trump, for 'conscience sake', but no conscience worries when allowing lying Clinton, who has accomplished nothing, is a lying murderer, puts our National Security at risk, shares classified email like it means nothing, and is probably the reason a DNC linked to Wikileaks was murdered, will make it as POTUS. There is MUCH more.

"But, you know, Trump is bombastic, and that is so turrible, and I have a conscience, you know, and Melania plagiarized."

Spare me the baloney. A vote for Trump neutralizes a vote for that criminal lying Hillary.

Votes only really matter in swing states. In safe states, they don't matter. That's a mathematical fact.

And I think you're not being fair in representing matters of conscience. I really would like to see more humility from Trump. Arrogance doesn't help (cf. Obama), and it can be dangerous. But that's only one thing.

At this moment, I'm not 100% resolved never to vote for Trump. I do have issues that bother my conscience. Mocking me is not the way to change my mind.

 

[StefanM]

Somehow throwing away their kid's future is easier to live with.

Trump may very well name better justices to the court (although we could easily end up with a David Souter in the end), but our kids will have a future either way.

I'm not speaking in terms of voting now. I mean from a 1000 ft view. Christians worshiped under the Roman Empire. Protestants worshiped under Catholic persecution.

Even if I vote for Trump, Trump may well lose. But God will still be on his throne, even if all the SCOTUS nominees are insanely liberal. His is the ultimate court of appeal, and we can petition it at any time. Even if the outcome isn't the preferred outcome, God can still restore the years the locusts eat.

Again, this isn't about voting. I'm just speaking generally about the election.

 

[Calminian]

Trump did not promise freedom, he tempted with power. He is telling them they will have a seat at the table.

Nothing wrong with a seat at the table. That's how our government is formed. 'We The People.' We're part of the government. We've been born into the royal family.

We are called to submit to those in authority over us. That has nothing to do with voting for someone who I fundamentally disagree with....

You mean someone who offends you. You agree with him on just about everything if you're truly a Christian. You certainly agree with his Supreme Court picks. He just annoys you, so you're willing to throw the court away.

Romans 13 is about submitting to the government in so far as that does not violate God's commands. The GOP is a private organization that has no authority on its own to compel anyone to do anything, including to vote for their candidate.

That's not the context I was using the verse. Romans 13 gives us insight into the purpose of governing authorities and what their role is. Even a pagan can function in this role and do it well.

The SCOTUS argument doesn't work because I don't trust Trump to do what he says.

This is a copout. Trump has actually provided a list of good SC picks praised by Christians and conservatives. Hillary has promised to appoint the opposite—the most anti-christians judges imaginable.

Trump's attacks on the 1st Amendment ....

Attacks on the 1A? Huh?

 

[Calminian]

Votes only really matter in swing states. In safe states, they don't matter. That's a mathematical fact.

And I think you're not being fair in representing matters of conscience. I really would like to see more humility from Trump. Arrogance doesn't help (cf. Obama), and it can be dangerous. But that's only one thing.

At this moment, I'm not 100% resolved never to vote for Trump. I do have issues that bother my conscience. Mocking me is not the way to change my mind.

We're talking about your words, not your vote. Words matter. Influence matters. You're potentially talking to people all over the nation. The future of our kids should have the most effect on your conscience. Will you be able to look them in the eye and admit you helped create the hostile court they're living under?