A reversal on waterboarding

[canadyjd]

Basically, I've just decided that utlizing waterboarding, and some other methods of extracting information, are an acceptable practice when people's lives are on the line. I've never denied that I would use any method at my disposal to personally extract information from a criminal if it would save the life of my family or loved ones. I've just always held to the belief that, even though I would do it personally, it doesn't make it right.

Your opposition to torture wasn't based on scripture, therefore it is easy to change your mind and now embrace it. Base your beliefs on scripture, on the teachings of your Lord Jesus Christ, and you'll stand firm in the midst of criticism.

Anyway, I guess I've also redefined the word torture within myself. I now believe that torture is something that is done because the torturer is a some type of sadist. Extracting information from someone in order to save lives is not torture, even if the methods are the same or resemble each other.

A person "redefines words" to soothe their conscience into supporting something they know is wrong. This is what the liberals do with abortion. They call the baby a "fetus" or a "zygote" or a "mass of cells". That way, it seems reasonable to support the indefensible.

This is what Christians, and others, do when then want to support torture, they just call it by another name and pretend it isn't violating God's Word and the commands of Christ to His children.

For instance, waterboarding someone for no reason other than waterboarding them would be torture. Waterboarding them to extract information that will save lives is not toture.

The ends doesn't justify the means. It always violates God's Word and the commands of Christ. You can never "do evil" so that "good may come".

Unlike others here, whom I agree with most of the time, I cannot praise you for this decision. No, I cannot praise you. But I will pray God convict you of this error in judgment.

peace to youraying:

 

[steaver]

I feel a strong urge to agree with you canadyjd, but what do we do with self defense as I described before? Is there any basis in Jesus' teaching for defending oneself or another? If I step in and stop a torture or moral crime upon another am I not resisting evil, the very thing Jesus told us not to do?

 

[canadyjd]

I feel a strong urge to agree with you canadyjd, but what do we do with self defense as I described before? Is there any basis in Jesus' teaching for defending oneself or another? If I step in and stop a torture or moral crime upon another am I not resisting evil, the very thing Jesus told us not to do?

I don't want to derail a thread about torture to discuss self-defense.

You should start another thread, perhaps in General Baptists discussions, for this question.

peace to youraying:

 

[steaver]

I don't want to derail a thread about torture to discuss self-defense.

You should start another thread, perhaps in General Baptists discussions, for this question.

peace to youraying:

I don't feel it would be off topic since you are admonishing us to go to the scripture for answers on torture. It is argued that self defense involves torturing another. Would it be right to torture someone to get them to stop torturing you or another?

War causes much suffering and pain to innocent by standers. Is this not torturing them to drop a bomb knowing full well there are women and children who will suffer?

So the self defense ties into this topic of torture and it is a political issue as well, thus ok to be discussed in this forum. It is argued that we waterboarded to save lives. We bomb to save lives. We kill others to save lives.

Matt said he agreed with waterboarding because it was for a good reason, to save innocent lives, or self-defense. You said, "stick with scripture, the end does not justify the means". So I just want us to elaborate on this suggestion and take it to it's end so we may apply it to every aspect of our lives.

So I don't think the moderators are going to scold you for answering my questions. God Bless!

 

[Revmitchell]

Person A has information of a plan to murder 3000 people and will not assist in saving their lives because he wants them dead as well. Information is extracted from him by use of force and those 3000 people are saved. I have no problem with defending innocent lives by extracting that information. I would use force to extract information to save my family, my friends, or any innocent lives. What the opposition to this does is to make sorry attempts to divorce the extraction of information by force from the innocent lives that will be saved.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I applaud you're honesty also and believe your justifications are sound.

However let me ask, is it okay to steal a steak because you are starving to death? Is it okay to lie if it will save lives?

These are the questions at the core of why I have not changed.

In my view the question of water boarding and torture is not can we justify the reasons for its use, the question is did it violate a principle or moral standard by which we live. This is the foundation of the statement Jesus made when he said, "what good is it for you to gain the whole world and loose your soul". What good is it to save everybody in the world if you compromise your foundational principles? In each of our lives there must be a line that no matter what the circumstance we will not cross it. So to me the question is did we cross that line?

My statements are not to detract from your decision or to say your are right or wrong, I am simply saying the reason I have not changed has to do with the question of legality. Like stealing the steak or telling a lie, it is not whether I feel it is justified, it is a simple matter of was it legal.

It is World War 2, and you are a guerilla fighter. You have knowledge of who the guerillas are in the vicinity, where they live, where they store their arms, what the hit-and-run plans are, and who their supporters are.

You are walking down this path, and you encounter a group of Japs.

They stop you and question you: Are you gerirya ?

If you say no, you lied and violated a Christian tenet and principle, never mind what your personal tenets and principles are.

What would you do ?

 

[LadyEagle]

Is it okay to lie if it will save lives?

Ask Corie ten Boom. Ask Oskar Schindler.

Your rhetorical question is absurd.

 

[just-want-peace]

Does Jesus admonition to "love your enemies" reject the love of others? I think not.
Jesus was tortured, was He not?
God (Father) condoned it, did He not?
Since the Father could have disallowed it, then He was supportive of it, even if only by refusal to act to stop it, was He not?
If He allowed it, why?
IMHO, it was because this action would serve the purpose of giving His created beings the way to salvation.

Ergo, again IMHO, torture is therefore a legitimate means to get the information that may save MANY lives, even if at the cost of one!

If anyone feels that torture under these circumstances and conditions is biblically wrong, then I challenge you to justify God's approval of the torturous death of Christ.

I can almost hear the wails of some denouncing "JUSTIFYING WHAT GOD HAS DONE" as blasphemy; well all I can say is that you should never ask "What would Jesus do?" if you feel this way.

Summing up, is the life(s) of innocents worth LESS than the life of the terrorist? If you condone treating the terrorist in such a humane manner, while allowing his knowledge of the future deaths of innocents to stay locked up in his mind, then you are, in actuality, deciding the value of each.

Again, does Jesus advocate "loving your enemy" as more important than "Loving your neighbor"???? Again, IMHO, I think not!

Incidentally, I have been amazed at the civility in this thread thus far - shows it can be done!! Keep it up guys!!!!!!

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus was tortured, was He not?
God (Father) condoned it, did He not?
Since the Father could have disallowed it, then He was supportive of it, even if only by refusal to act to stop it, was He not?
If He allowed it, why?

IMHO, it was because this action would serve the purpose of giving His created beings the way to salvation.

Ergo, again IMHO, torture is therefore a legitimate means to get the information that may save MANY lives, even if at the cost of one!.......

The main problem with your analysis, and there are many, is that we are not God. We do not posess the perfect wisdom, perfect righteousness, perfect judgment, to do these things.

God was not given us an example of torture to follow when He allowed Jesus to suffer and die. He was giving us an example of perfect love and perfect obedience to follow.

How can you say we are to mimic the ungodly men who put Him to death?

To attempt to justify torture in such a way is....bizarre.

Again, does Jesus advocate "loving your enemy" as more important than "Loving your neighbor"???? Again, IMHO, I think not!

Jesus commanded both. We don't get to pick and choose which to obey. If we love Christ, we obey His commands. Anything else is of the world.

peace to youraying:

 

[LeBuick]

If you say no, you lied and violated a Christian tenet and principle, never mind what your personal tenets and principles are.

What would you do ?

Your rhetorical question is absurd.

Asking what I would do has nothing to do with the quandary, I may do right or I may do wrong. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong irregardless of what I do or how I try and justify my actions. That is also why I disagree with LE calling my question absurd.

Right doesn't come with exceptions or exclusions. Jesus didn't say Love your Brother except when etc... He didn't say do unto others as you would have them do unto you except when etc...

Now I am the first to admit like Rev that if I can save 3000 lives I just may do it. I don't know. But I do know it doesn't change it being right or wrong irregardless of how I justify my actions.

 

[targus]

Right is still right and wrong is still wrong irregardless of what I do or how I try and justify my actions.

True - true - true !!!!!

Right doesn't come with exceptions or exclusions.

True - true - true !!!!

Now I am the first to admit like Rev that if I can save 3000 lives I just may do it. I don't know.

Actually we do know. You had a chance to save countless lives - but voted for Obama instead.

But I do know it doesn't change it being right or wrong irregardless of how I justify my actions.

You say that - but then continue to attempt to justify your vote anyway.

 

[LeBuick]

Actually we do know. You had a chance to save countless lives - but voted for Obama instead.

You say that - but then continue to attempt to justify your vote anyway.

And a vote for McCain would have changed things how? We had a republican president the last 8 years and 7 out of the 9 SC Justices were appointed by Republican's yet abortion is legal.

So voting republican changes things how? It seems we don't save one life no matter who we vote for. At least my vote is restoring the economy. Something is better than nothing.

 

[targus]

And a vote for McCain would have changed things how? We had a republican president the last 8 years and 7 out of the 9 SC Justices were appointed by Republican's yet abortion is legal.

So voting republican changes things how? It seems we don't save one life no matter who we vote for. At least my vote is restoring the economy. Something is better than nothing.

Obama is an enthusiastic unabashed supporter/promoter of abortion and baby killing.

All during the campaing plenty of people here pointed this out repeatedly.

One of his first acts as President was to fund more abortions.

You voted for him.

More than that you were/are an enthusiastic unabashed supporter/promoter of Obama - and by extension his abortion values.

The blood is on your hands too.

Stop making excuses.

Right is always right and wrong is always wrong.

 

[blackbird]

At least my vote is restoring the economy.

Don't make us laugh, LeBuick!!!!

:laugh::laugh:

 

[targus]

At least my vote is restoring the economy.

Given your demonstrated complete and absolute lack of knowledge concerning economics, the income tax system and basic civics...

How do you make such statements?

 

[Gold Dragon]

For instance, waterboarding someone for no reason other than waterboarding them would be torture. Waterboarding them to extract information that will save lives is not toture.

I believe this type of thinking is commonly referred to as "the ends justifying the means".

 

[poncho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-w8Yws8POo&feature=related

I just love the black masks. It's so totally American. Okay which of you is next? Any volunteers?

Sign up below.

While you're thinking it over let me explain why I personally like the idea of waterboarding. Seems like everyone that we waterboard is so eager to tell us a story and admit to things they've done or know about whether true or not is so cool. One thing that sorta bothers me, I do hate wasting all that time, money and manpower chasing all the false leads we get from those lucky enough to be waterboarded. I fail to see how wasting valuable time and resources chasing these false leads saves lives though. Hmmmm.

Maybe y'all can explain that to me?

Anyway, I just keep telling myself that coerced confessions make for great propaganda even if they are untrue. Worked real well for the communists so it oughta work for us. Right? Did you know that practically 100% of the folks we waterboard admit to being terrorists or to knowing some terrorists or knowing about future terrorist plots? Now I ask you is waterboarding effective or what?

This stuff really works! It's so cool to help save lives!

Hey, can I get one of those black masks so I can look like one of the good guys too?

 

[steaver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-w8Yws8POo&feature=related

I just love the black masks. It's so totally American. Okay which of you is next? Any volunteers?

Sign up below.

While you're thinking it over let me explain why I personally like the idea of waterboarding. Seems like everyone that we waterboard is so eager to tell us a story and admit to things they've done or know about whether true or not is so cool. One thing that sorta bothers me, I do hate wasting all that time, money and manpower chasing all the false leads we get from those lucky enough to be waterboarded. I fail to see how wasting valuable time and resources chasing these false leads saves lives though. Hmmmm.

Maybe y'all can explain that to me?

Anyway, I just keep telling myself that coerced confessions make for great propaganda even if they are untrue. Worked real well for the communists so it oughta work for us. Right? Did you know that practically 100% of the folks we waterboard admit to being terrorists or to knowing some terrorists or knowing about future terrorist plots? Now I ask you is waterboarding effective or what?

This stuff really works! It's so cool to help save lives!

Hey, can I get one of those black masks so I can look like one of the good guys too?

Your sarcasim makes good points. :thumbs:

I had asked a few others and received no response about "self-defense" from a Christian pov. When is torture ok as a "self-defense" such as war itself as dropping bombs knowing some children will be tortured and killed by such an action? Any thoughts?

:jesus:

 

[LadyEagle]

Your sarcasim makes good points. :thumbs:

I had asked a few others and received no response about "self-defense" from a Christian pov. When is torture ok as a "self-defense" such as war itself as dropping bombs knowing some children will be tortured and killed by such an action? Any thoughts?

:jesus:

Mod Note: No, but you can start another thread on the topic. Let's stick with matt's OP. Thanks.

 

[righteousdude2]

Matt, Matt, He's Our Man...

If he can change, anyone can!

Matt and I have bumped heads on the forum several times in the past, that is why I am so impressed with his ABILITY to make a change in how he sees the definiton of torture, especially water-boarding, and has freely changed his mind..

I look at true torture (the kind that should be out-lawed) as being something that results in the surgical removal of body parts; causing physical or emotional distress that remains for a persons life-time; rape (male-on-male, or male-on-female) is always going to be wrong; hurting or killing the terrorists' family member; maiming, or disfiguring the body of the prisoner.

Water-boarding, from what I've seen on-line, does not seem to be any of the above. Sure, it causes panic and the fear-of-drowning, but, the person can walk away from the incident, still alive! When America uses torture to get info that means saving the lives of the masses, they always do it with medical specialist on sight. In truth, American detainees are housed in places that give Club Med a run for their money.

In conclusion: Water-boarding is only bad when it is done in a manner that results in the death of the detainee. I don't believe there's been a death from Water-boarding at Gitmo, so be it!

Thanks Matt for making an horable change in your personal views. This is what it takes to be a Christian in this day-and age!!!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul
Remove the Haze Ministries
Prodigal Daze and
Thorn Daze