A Scripture question [particularly for Calvinists]

[37818]

This doctrine of limited atonement, however does not mean that Christ did not die for all men, but means the the atonement is limited in its application to the elect alone.

Well, I hold Christ's death on the cross is that He is Lord of all men, either as their Savior or as their Judge. Romans 8:34; Romans 14:9-11.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, I hold Christ's death on the cross is that He is Lord of all men, either as their Savior or as their Judge. Romans 8:34; Romans 14:9-11.

The question is did the Father intend to have Christ death atone for all sinners or not?

 

[Benjamin]

Depends.....funny how?

Kinda like this:

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[37818]

The question is did the Father intend to have Christ death atone for all sinners or not?

Yes. Ironiclly John Owen, in his, To The Reader, argued, ". . . To what purpose serves the general ransom, but only to assert that Almighty God would have the precious blood of his dear Son poured out for innumerable souls whom he will not have to share in any drop thereof, and so, in respect of them, to be spilt in vain, or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned? . . ." Which is not something he believed.

 

[Iconoclast]

fr

Could you give me that short list where and why that Greek conjunction καί should be translared "if" and not "and."

BTW, that whole list can be understood to be an impossible, the subject.

om precept austin;
AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY : kai parapesontas (AAPMPA):

• Hebrews 6 Resources - Multiple Sermons and Commentaries

And then (2532) (kai) indicates connection to the prior passage, mostly as a simple continuative, marking the progress of a continued discourse. Kai does not mark the beginning of a conditional statement as is suggested by several translations that begin the sentence with "if". The King James translation, NIV and RSV have chosen to translate this passage with if but this is not an accurate rendering of the Greek text and is potentially misleading.

Fallen away (3895) (parapipto from pará = to side of or from + pípto= fall) means to fall aside or fall away. Figuratively it means to apostatize or to fall away from adherence to realities and facts of the true faith. This is the only use in the NT (6 uses in Septuagint - Esth 6:10; Ezek 14:13; 15:8; 18:24; 20:27; 22:4).

Contrast the writer's repetitive call for the readers to hold fast (He 3:6, 14, 4:14, 10:23 - See notes Hebrews 3:6, 3:14, 4:14, 10:23, Cp Hebrews 3:12-note)

From the context of the rest of Hebrews, those who fall away are not genuine believers.

John gives a parallel description in his first letter writing that…

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us. (1Jn 2:19)

How is it possible for one to experience all of the spiritual truths outlined in this section and yet not be regenerated? As discussed earlier, Judas Iscariot experienced Jesus Himself, God in the flesh and yet he was never born again. Jesus even called him “devil” (Jn 6:70), “son of perdition” (Jn 17:12, and one for whom it “would be better… if he had not been born” (Mk 14:21). Jesus knew Judas’ condition from the beginning, though Judas fooled the disciples to the last!

 

[MB]

Hebrews 6 cannot be understood apart from Limited Atonement.

That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away.

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

But others who fall away, were not the elect. So God would need to elect them for salvation, Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them, before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

Really! So you are so pure you never sin? My My! Sinning is falling away.

 

[1689Dave]

Really! So you are so pure you never sin? My My! Sinning is falling away.

Only the born again overcome in truth. They cannot live a sinful lifestyle because it is no longer their nature to do so.

 

[MB]

Only the born again overcome in truth. They cannot live a sinful lifestyle because it is no longer their nature to do so.

So you're trying to tell me you no longer sin That you are now perfect. I don't believe you even in the least. The Bible clearly states there is no man with out sin John Wrote;
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
MB.

 

[1689Dave]

So you're trying to tell me you no longer sin That you are now perfect. I don't believe you even in the least. The Bible clearly states there is no man with out sin John Wrote;
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
MB.

You need to try and understand what John means.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

 

[loDebar]

Déjà vu all over again

yall remind me of an old couple arguing the same thing, same way time after time

 

[1689Dave]

Déjà vu all over again

yall remind me of an old couple arguing the same thing, same way time after time

So that's all truth is worth?

 

[MB]

You need to try and understand what John means.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

Oh excuse me I had no Idea that you are perfect .
MB

 

[MB]

Déjà vu all over again

yall remind me of an old couple arguing the same thing, same way time after time

I'm sorry Calvinism isn't that complicated. It's just repeated false doctrine. It needs to be stomped on every time it raises it's ugly head.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm sorry Calvinism isn't that complicated. It's just repeated false doctrine. It needs to be stomped on every time it raises it's ugly head.
MB

Preeminence takes a certain desire and discipline.

 

[Dave G]

I'm sorry Calvinism isn't that complicated. It's just repeated false doctrine. It needs to be stomped on every time it raises it's ugly head.

CANON IV.- " If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema."

CANON VII.-" If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema. "

CANON IX.-" If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

CANON XV.-" If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema."

CANON XVII.- " If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema."

CANON XXXI.- " If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema."

- Canons of Trent, Sixth Session, On Justification.

Source:
~The Council of Trent - Session 6~



" ■ Council of Trent: Several hundred years later, the ecumenical Council of Trent once again tackled these issues in responding to the Protestant Reformation. When it comes to this issue, Trent said two things. First, we cannot be assured in this life that we are among those who have been predestined, apart from some special revelation from God. This kind of language presumes predestination—that there exist some who are predestined. Here all that is condemned is the notion that we can know we are among the ones chosen, or predestined."

Source:
What Does the Church Say About Predestination?



With respect, it seems that you are in agreement with many out there, MB.

At the top of the list is the Roman Catholic Church, whose view of the free will of man has been referred to as "Molinism", and is very closely related to what is now known as "Wesleyan Arminianism" or "Evangelical Arminianism".
The RCC also condemns "Calvinism" ( the doctrines of grace ) and affirm the Canons of Trent to this day.
As far as I am aware, those canons have never been rescinded.

The reason I state things this way, MB, is out of a concern that I don't believe that you genuinely know who, and what, you are agreeing with.
If, however, you are indeed at peace with this, then of course that is your choice to make and it saddens me.

 

[Mr. Davis]

I want to tread carefully here and ask any readers to withhold judgment until I can explain fully what I mean. Charles Stanley, in his book, Eternal Security, says that salvation is eternal but that an elect one may backslide, without repenting, even til death.

In Hebrews 6, salvation is not in question, only the impossibility for some genuine believers to repent. They are of no use to God's work so he puts them "on the shelf." Stanley references a scripture from 1 Corinthians to make this point.

Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 need to be taken together. The "fire" of Heb 10 needs to be compared with the destiny of the sinning believers of 1 Corinthians 11. Paul writes to the saved at Corinth, but emphasizes that some will be immature even to the day of their judgment. (1 Corinthians 3).

Paul, in Romans 8, makes it very clear that we can know that we are saved. Our assurance is that God's Spirit bears witness with our spirit. As Sproul so wisely pointed out, our assurance is strongest when we are living obedient lives.

 

[Yeshua1]

Only the born again overcome in truth. They cannot live a sinful lifestyle because it is no longer their nature to do so.

The redeemed cannot continue to live in habitual sinning, in a lifestyle of sinning, but we still do sin, to claim otherwise makes God a liar!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. Ironiclly John Owen, in his, To The Reader, argued, ". . . To what purpose serves the general ransom, but only to assert that Almighty God would have the precious blood of his dear Son poured out for innumerable souls whom he will not have to share in any drop thereof, and so, in respect of them, to be spilt in vain, or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned? . . ." Which is not something he believed.

He held to particular atonement, but not Double predestination...

 

[MB]

Only the born again overcome in truth. They cannot live a sinful lifestyle because it is no longer their nature to do so.

Just where does scripture say that.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

Just where does scripture say that.
MB

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)