A Seeker Asks, "Does this BB fairly represent Calvinism?"

[Iconoclast]

Thanks Iconoclast for your reply. Regarding non-cals replying, while I would especially like for calvinists to reply (and hope that more of them do), I didn't mean to necessarily exclude non-cals ("...I'd like to ask my fellow BBers, especially those who happen to be calvinists...") if they can offer some sort of perspective that may be informative as a couple of them have.

Humble,
there are so many good links available on the web....to get an overall view of calvinism.....in Addition...sermon audio is loaded with good sermons with most of the hundreds of pastors believing in the doctrines of grace

www.sermonaudio.com

here are some other links for you;

http://www.puritanlibrary.com/
http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/home.php
http://www.founders.org/library/dagg_vol1/all.html
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/pinks_archive.htm
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/LibraryPg1.html
http://www.reformedbaptistinstitute.org/?p=291
http://www.arbca.com/
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/calvin/inst/index.htm
http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/

 

[Iconoclast]

Skan,

I know. You didn't break any rules, but I just thought it was completely misrepresentative of what really happens on this board on a daily basis.

Well...I would prefer to see the level of interaction be raised higher than what i see happening.

Ask yourself a question....think of which threads you enjoy the most, then look and see that it is the threads that have the most verses dealing with Jesus work in salvation.

look who speaks of that in a scriptural way.....go back as time permits and see who, or when a thread gets derailed...why does it happen....
can it happen both ways yes....but keep an eye out for how it happens:thumbs:
I think you are trying to be fair...for the most part.....I think you are doing a good job as a moderator overall...

It is okay if we disagree.....but lets not speak past each other....You can say anything to me and I will not take offence in that I am concerned with seeking out God's truth...so that implies being corrected many times...I just ask that the attempted correction be scriptural based.

 

[Iconoclast]

double post

 

[Skandelon]

Well...I would prefer to see the level of interaction be raised higher than what i see happening.

Well, on that point we agree. :thumbsup:

But, if you think it is just one sided, or even leaning toward one side you need to post in my shoes for a while. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Andy T.]

The first of this year my worldview was challenged when I realized a new friend whom I highly respected was 'Reformed'. I came to this BB hoping to be informed as to what exactly Calvinism was and in the spirit of Aristotle's quote, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." I have attempted to make my inquiry. Not simply to entertain myself, for such a challenge to one's worldview is in no way entertaining, but to consider what should be believed and then submit myself to this belief and live accordingly (as I had done with the KJVO issue just six months prior).

Since March I have been researching and following the pertinent threads and in April I joined the BB to further participate. In large part I feel that my objective has been accomplished but I can't help but think that what I have been reading from the pro-calvinist side has not been accurately presented... or at least it is not fairly representing mainstream calvinism. It seems to me that not even most of the active calvinists on this BB are contributing to the debate. Also possible is that some may not be expressing their disagreement with other more insistent and persistent calvinists on this board. However, their lack of expression seems to be a silent admission that what is being represented is an accurate view of calvinism.


There are people I highly respect from both sides, scholars and friends. There are arguments from both perspectives that are challenging to me no matter what I may believe. Nevertheless, the responsibility as to what to believe is mine and so I should hope to come to a settled opinion on the matter. Before I do, however, I'd like to ask my fellow BBers, especially those who happen to be calvinists, whether they think that Calvinism is accurately or fairly presented and defended by your fellow calvinists on this BB?

If you really want to struggle with this issue with clarity, I don't recommend using this Board as one of your primary sources. In fact, it might be wise to not use this Board at all. There is more heat than light on this Board and things tend to always get personal. What I recommend:

1. Bible Study
2. Prayer
3. Read scholars from both sides. From the Cal side, I think this is a great book - very user friendly and written from a kind spirit:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1433511282/?tag=baptis04-20

Sproul is good too. Piper, MacArthur, Packer.

 

[psalms109:31]

Spurgeon Vs Hyper Calvinism: The Battle for Gospel Preaching by Iain H. Murray

I recommend reading this. It helped me to understand what is really important Jesus, what is grace without knowing Him?

 

[David Lamb]

IMO, there are at least a half dozen on this board who call themselves "Calvinist" that are out & out H...

Sorry, Benjamin, just to be sure I haven't totally misunderstood your post, I must ask, did your "H..." mean "Hypercalvinists", or "Hypocrites"? (I cannot see how the zipped lips icon would fit with it being "Hypercalvinist"). Or perhaps your "H..." stood for some other word starting with h.

 

[humblethinker]

If you really want to struggle with this issue with clarity, I don't recommend using this Board as one of your primary sources. In fact, it might be wise to not use this Board at all. There is more heat than light on this Board and things tend to always get personal. What I recommend:

1. Bible Study
2. Prayer
3. Read scholars from both sides. From the Cal side, I think this is a great book - very user friendly and written from a kind spirit:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1433511282/?tag=baptis04-20

Sproul is good too. Piper, MacArthur, Packer.

Book purchased and downloading into my Kindle app. The reviews appear to be very good. Hopefully this will be a fair presentation of Calvinism.
Thank you Andy

 

[JesusFan]

I do think some here are very consistent in representing what I would consider a more mainstream form of Calvinism. I was a Calvinist for about a decade and became a Calvinist under the teachings of men like MacArthur, Piper, Sproul, JI Packer, Nettles and the like, so maybe I'm biased as to who I see as in the "mainstream," but I don't think so.

Some of the guys who SEEM to correctly represent a more "mainstream" view of Calvinism (from my LIMITED interaction with them) are guys like TomVols, Andy T., and ArchAngel. I'm not saying that is all, but those are the ones I've had discussions with in the past and who I remember do appear to represent Calvinism from a more "classical" perspective. They also all happen to be gentlemen who (for the most part) don't allow emotion and disagreement to drag our discussions into the mud, which I really appreciate.

If I think of others I'll let you know....

You hurt my feelings!

Thought as a Moderate cal, more actually an Armralist, we got along quite well considering how you and others get along here!

 

[Thousand Hills]

humblethinker, the C/A debate is what brought me to start lurking here several years ago. There's room for arrogance and pride on either side of the debate, in my opinion, most of the good folks on BB fall in the middle, but when I'm reading through threads on the issue I'll tend to give more weight to those posters (on either side) that season their comments with grace and humility, and encouragement to keep studying God's word.

Over the past few years from having no understanding of the debate, I've become reformed in my thinking, and based upon definitions I've seen here am a soft/moderate calvinist. Some of the posters that have really helped me better understand some issues are Jim1999, Iconoclast, and Glfredrick, among others. But like someone else said, read, pray, and study.

A couple of years ago I also started periodically checking another message board (board of puritans), those guys really made me angry as I struggled with this issue. Lately, I've been reading that site more frequently than here. I don't agree with everything they might believe on baptism, etc. But I find those folks to be very civil (compared to BB) and always striving to learn more.

 

[JesusFan]

humblethinker, the C/A debate is what brought me to start lurking here several years ago. There's room for arrogance and pride on either side of the debate, in my opinion, most of the good folks on BB fall in the middle, but when I'm reading through threads on the issue I'll tend to give more weight to those posters (on either side) that season their comments with grace and humility, and encouragement to keep studying God's word.

Over the past few years from having no understanding of the debate, I've become reformed in my thinking, and based upon definitions I've seen here am a soft/moderate calvinist. Some of the posters that have really helped me better understand some issues are Jim1999, Iconoclast, and Glfredrick, among others. But like someone else said, read, pray, and study.

A couple of years ago I also started periodically checking another message board (board of puritans), those guys really made me angry as I struggled with this issue. Lately, I've been reading that site more frequently than here. I don't agree with everything they might believe on baptism, etc. But I find those folks to be very civil (compared to BB) and always striving to learn more.

I also go there to view various postings on puritan Board, but find them VERY much stuck "our way" is the only way!

A great source of reformed calninism, but don't know how much a baptist cal would get from there, as they tend to go for infant baptism/covenant theology/more amil eschatology etc than most Baptists get into!

 

[Thousand Hills]

I also go there to view various postings on puritan Board, but find them VERY much stuck "our way" is the only way!

A great source of reformed calninism, but don't know how much a baptist cal would get from there, as they tend to go for infant baptism/covenant theology/more amil eschatology etc than most Baptists get into!

Yeah, I know what you mean, about the other stuff, I just take it with a grain of salt. Its mostly Presbys, most of which seem conservative in their views, but there does seem to be quite a few reformed baptist on there, even remember seeing a methodist who posts occasionaly.

 

[Aaron]

Icon, your post was offensive and misrepresentative on so many levels, your lack of visible scriptural references was really the very least of my worries about that response. I know you quote (and misinterpret IMO) many passages, but to pretend you are the only ones who present or deal with textual arguments on a regular basis is just unfounded.

And this from one who named himself "Offence," applying a title of Christ to himself*. Am I the only one finding this an afront?

From here on out, to me you are simply Scandal. I cannot bring myself anymore to lend credence to your unchecked brazenness.

*1 Peter 2:7-8.

 

[Dr. Bob]

To answer the op, Calvinist/Reformed Baptists here are given freedom to present their position and interpretation of the doctrines of grace.

As are others who are 0-1-2-3-4 on the 5-point scale.

If we had a hypercalvinist, they would be accorded the same freedom.

When the BB was formed 11+ years ago (I was on board in the beginning month) there was a huge controversy with those espousing a non-calvinistic view of sovereignty. The word "heresy" was finally ELIMINATED from use on the BB. We fought thru and most of the arminian and semi-pelagians dropped by the wayside. Others who were in the "middle ground" (actually, the majority) simply quit debating the area altogether, tired of the petty bickering instead of in-depth biblical discussions.

Most of the Admin/Moderators here would still lean toward the conservative calvinistic side, although only of few of us would be openly "reformed" in debate.

So if "Calvinism" is not "fairly represented", it is through no fault of ours. The freedom to present what Baptists who are Calvinists teach/believe is probably more evident HERE than any other general discussion board.

 

[preacher4truth]

And this from one who named himself "Offence," applying a title of Christ to himself*. Am I the only one finding this an afront?

From here on out, to me you are simply Scandal. I cannot bring myself anymore to lend credence to your unchecked brazenness.

*1 Peter 2:7-8.

This is unreal. I read through all the posts of Iconoclast, not one thing have I found to be offensive. I rather found them to be enlightening myself, worthy of thought, and the Scripture references helpful. But then it is called "offensive."

Yet it remains, we have one within the thread that calls some cals on here "H" but that is overlooked, correct? Now that's justifiable?

Totally unnecessary derogation.

 

[JesusFan]

To answer the op, Calvinist/Reformed Baptists here are given freedom to present their position and interpretation of the doctrines of grace.

As are others who are 0-1-2-3-4 on the 5-point scale.

If we had a hypercalvinist, they would be accorded the same freedom.

When the BB was formed 11+ years ago (I was on board in the beginning month) there was a huge controversy with those espousing a non-calvinistic view of sovereignty. The word "heresy" was finally ELIMINATED from use on the BB. We fought thru and most of the arminian and semi-pelagians dropped by the wayside. Others who were in the "middle ground" (actually, the majority) simply quit debating the area altogether, tired of the petty bickering instead of in-depth biblical discussions.

Most of the Admin/Moderators here would still lean toward the conservative calvinistic side, although only of few of us would be openly "reformed" in debate.

So if "Calvinism" is not "fairly represented", it is through no fault of ours. The freedom to present what Baptists who are Calvinists teach/believe is probably more evident HERE than any other general discussion board.

Think that all of us here could learn more about what each side teaches, as notice that what tends to happen is either we don't really know what other side teaches, having "straw men", or else the others refuse to actuall acknowledhe that IS indeed what they teach, just now owning it!

 

[Iconoclast]

P4T,

While I think some of the things you mentioned should not happen...i would rather allow for people to express honestly what they think...so you know who you are dealing with up front.

6Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful

Even though it is a message board, we should not lose sight of the fact that what we think and do is before the eyes of the Lord.

3The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

4A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

I do not mind if someone gets excited within reason...I prefer that, to a dead fish floating downstream. If a person resorts to those kind of statements it shows they are frustrated and unable to come to truth .

I look more for scriptures offered than some of the heat and emotion.
Sometimes I see an unfortunate post and try to learn not to do the same thing that I do not like that I see in others. I fail sometimes at this.

Sometimes we post in haste, not reading and considering what is offered;

20Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

28The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things

I think this happens here too often.
Some post in anger;

22An angry man stirreth up strife, and a furious man aboundeth in transgression

I do this sometimes if I take the bait:laugh:

Some resist clear bible verses;

32He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding

But they despise their own soul.

 

[preacher4truth]

P4T,

While I think some of the things you mentioned should not happen...i would rather allow for people to express honestly what they think...so you know who you are dealing with up front.



Even though it is a message board, we should not lose sight of the fact that what we think and do is before the eyes of the Lord.




I do not mind if someone gets excited within reason...I prefer that, to a dead fish floating downstream. If a person resorts to those kind of statements it shows they are frustrated and unable to come to truth .

I look more for scriptures offered than some of the heat and emotion.
Sometimes I see an unfortunate post and try to learn not to do the same thing that I do not like that I see in others. I fail sometimes at this.

Sometimes we post in haste, not reading and considering what is offered;





I think this happens here too often.
Some post in anger;


I do this sometimes if I take the bait:laugh:

Some resist clear bible verses;


But they despise their own soul.

I agree with you as per usual. But the thing that stuck out to me reading through the thread was the "H" comment, and not a thing you said.

I found no offense in your words at all.

I know, I am supposed to go report the thread. Naw, I'll pass. It is so blatantly apparent, why bother?

 

[Benjamin]

About the OP:
However, their lack of expression seems to be a silent admission that what is being represented is an accurate view of calvinism.

Me creating this thread is in large part because I wondered if there were cals that didn't believe in some of the more, how should I say, extreme or hyper opinions that seemed to be predominant as of late.

I’ve been here 7 years and never seen such tolerance of the hyper Calvinist/Hard Determinist/”biblical Calvinism” – whatever you (or they) want to call it – type opinions flying around. I’ve asked myself the same question as to why the mainstream Calvinist would not take a stand against the views (*openly or logically attributing evil to God, and arrogantly preaching a dark message that some have no hope because of not being pre-elected) being presented on this board as if they were orthodox views. I find it very disturbing, especially when I consider a seeker might be searching here for hope. I’m thinking something is really wrong here as of late and frankly I’ve about had my fill of it.

My guess is that a biased authority here has unconscionably allowed the “over the top” Hard Determinists views to run amuck as an “in your face”, “payback” to the non-Calvinist by denying the violence done to the truth. To be fair I’ve considered that maybe the non-Cals have forced this hand by being overly accusative at times, but two wrongs never make a right and what I believe should be the “*priority” is being willfully neglected. And yep, I know I don’t have to place myself under the “authority” that be here…I’ve been praying to a Higher Authority about the situation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You do know that all your moderators are non Calvinists, right?