A Seeker Asks, "Does this BB fairly represent Calvinism?"

[Dr. Bob]

I’ve asked myself the same question as to why the mainstream Calvinist would not take a stand against the views . . of arrogantly preaching a dark message that some have no hope because of not being pre-elected [/QUOTE]

Ah, this is part of the problem. 100% wrong teaching attributed and called "hyper-calvinism".

To believe that before the creation of the world God selected some of the undeserving wretches of this world to be recipients of His grace IS normal, regular 5-point Calvinism. It is 100% biblical and nothing to be ashamed of. All the others need not be "elected" to hell; they are already condemned and do not want heaven.

You see, NNE has any hope. ALL deserve hell and these choose to willingly go there, still an enemy of God and defiant even at the Throne, hating Jesus and scoffing His blood.

They don't go to hell because they were not "pre-elected". What an odd turn of words; either GOD elects man (calvinism) or man elects God (all other religious views).

 

[Benjamin]

You do know that all your moderators are non Calvinists, right?

Frankly, I think the moderators here for the most part do what they can and a pretty good job, they don't carry the ultimate authority here and I don't think that is where the problem's roots originate.

 

[Benjamin]

I’ve asked myself the same question as to why the mainstream Calvinist would not take a stand against the views . . of arrogantly preaching a dark message that some have no hope because of not being pre-elected [/QUOTE]

Ah, this is part of the problem. 100% wrong teaching attributed and called "hyper-calvinism".

To believe that before the creation of the world God selected some of the undeserving wretches of this world to be recipients of His grace IS normal, regular 5-point Calvinism. It is 100% biblical and nothing to be ashamed of. All the others need not be "elected" to hell; they are already condemned and do not want heaven.

You see, NNE has any hope. ALL deserve hell and these choose to willingly go there, still an enemy of God and defiant even at the Throne, hating Jesus and scoffing His blood.

They don't go to hell because they were not "pre-elected". What an odd turn of words; either GOD elects man (calvinism) or man elects God (all other religious views).

Bob, I'd love to debate you on the logic of that "that odd turn of words", one on one, you and me and where (the damage) that kind of determinist view (NNE has HOPE) logically leads to. Hint: a denial of free will...not even a view compatibity...but ultimately toward an attack on the nature and justice and truth of God. (Deut 32:4). Therein lies the problem, there is no middle ground with the degree of determinism that logically denies the truth of the offer of redemption to all, that it is genuine.

 

[JesusFan]

Bob, I'd love to debate you on the logic of that "that odd turn of words", one on one, you and me and where (the damage) that kind of determinist view (NNE has HOPE) logically leads to. Hint: a denial of free will...not even a view compatibity...but ultimately toward an attack on the nature and justice and truth of God. (Deut 32:4). Therein lies the problem, there is no middle ground with the degree of determinism that logically denies the truth of the offer of redemption to all, that it is genuine.

To be honest with you though...
Only a FEW Cals that post here are "hard determiniist" as you would see the Board becoming...

I think much more prevelant is the belief that man has some amount of goodness still in him, not totally morally bankrupt, so that we can weither allow God to ave us, or help assist him save us!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Frankly, I think the moderators here for the most part do what they can and a pretty good job, they don't carry the ultimate authority here and I don't think that is where the problem's roots originate.

Im not sure you have a good foundational view on Calvinism. someone earlier suggested the book, " Doctrines of Grace" written by James Montgomery Boice....I think its 12 dollars on Amazon. Dr Boice was a Calvinist & when he wrote this book to both provide information on Calvinistic beliefs & also contrasts it to Non Calvinists particularly Arminian doctrine. That book was his final project before he died of cancer & felt the dire need to impart the information. I recommend it strongly for anyone who wants to understand Calvinistic thought.

 

[JesusFan]

Im not sure you have a good foundational view on Calvinism. someone earlier suggested the book, " Doctrines of Grace" written by James Montgomery Boice....I think its 12 dollars on Amazon. Dr Boice was a Calvinist & when he wrote this book to both provide information on Calvinistic beliefs & also contrasts it to Non Calvinists particularly Arminian doctrine. That book was his final project before he died of cancer & felt the dire need to impart the information. I recommend it strongly for anyone who wants to understand Calvinistic thought.

Moody handbook of theology has some good concise chapters on what Arms cals Hold to

Also could read the abridged institutes of Christian religion 1 book paperback!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Bob, I'd love to debate you on the logic of that "that odd turn of words", one on one, you and me and where (the damage) that kind of determinist view (NNE has HOPE) logically leads to.

Eph 2:11ff. 'Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh.....that at that time you were without Christ......strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Note

1. There is no hope outside of Christ.
2. We did not bring ourselves near.
3. Salvation is all of Christ.

Steve

 

[psalms109:31]

Purpose

The goal of God is to do what He promised to make Abraham a nation that cannot be counted. God is using us the few the remnant to bring that purpose to spread the hope that is in Christ and has given us the Holy Spirit with the words of life for the dead. They can continue to condemnation, but God through His word has given, placed before them life and death so chose Jesus and live.

Praise God through Jesus Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

Eph 2:11ff. 'Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh.....that at that time you were without Christ......strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Note

1. There is no hope outside of Christ.
2. We did not bring ourselves near.
3. Salvation is all of Christ.

Steve

Seems that quite a bit of what is seen as being biblical in this area on BB would be similiar to a theology going around in college days, being propagated by a couple of professors..

they wrote a book that postulated a theology that stated that God in Christ Death on Cross elected ALL people to be save. conditional election to Eternal life until they themselves took them out of salvation by activelty rejecting Jesus

So all those never heard saved, other religions saved basically you had to hear and make will choice to reject Christ!

Seem to take what karl barth posulated to logical conclusion!

And this seems to be some espouse hear without knowing it!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

JF didnt you say you go to an Evangelical Free Church? Really trying to make sense of what you are saying....help me out.....do you or dont you believe in Doctrines of Grace.

Thank you

 

[Skandelon]

If you really want to struggle with this issue with clarity, I don't recommend using this Board as one of your primary sources. In fact, it might be wise to not use this Board at all. There is more heat than light on this Board and things tend to always get personal. What I recommend:

1. Bible Study
2. Prayer
3. Read scholars from both sides. From the Cal side, I think this is a great book - very user friendly and written from a kind spirit:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1433511282/?tag=baptis04-20

Sproul is good too. Piper, MacArthur, Packer.

This is good advice from a good man. :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

You hurt my feelings!

Thought as a Moderate cal, more actually an Armralist, we got along quite well considering how you and others get along here!

JesusFan, no offense was intended in leaving you off the list. You do post with grace in most circumstances, BUT you still SEEM to be searching for where you land, so to speak. I may just be misreading you because of all the question you ask, but that was just my take.

 

[Skandelon]

And this from one who named himself "Offence," applying a title of Christ to himself*. Am I the only one finding this an afront?

The name is in honor of the "rock of offense," the one who caused those who think they knew it all to stumble so as to save their souls. Read Romans 9-11 again and you will see that the "rock of offense" (Christ) was merciful causing Israel to stumble because in doing so they might be provoked to envy and saved (Rm. 11:14).

From here on out, to me you are simply Scandal.

I can live with that. Scandal: "Bringing the truth into the light." I like it. Thanks!

I cannot bring myself anymore to lend credence to your unchecked brazenness.

Oh, its checked and polished daily.

 

[Iconoclast]

I’ve been here 7 years and never seen such tolerance of the hyper Calvinist/Hard Determinist/”biblical Calvinism” – whatever you (or they) want to call it – type opinions flying around. I’ve asked myself the same question as to why the mainstream Calvinist would not take a stand against the views (*openly or logically attributing evil to God, and arrogantly preaching a dark message that some have no hope because of not being pre-elected) being presented on this board as if they were orthodox views. I find it very disturbing, especially when I consider a seeker might be searching here for hope. I’m thinking something is really wrong here as of late and frankly I’ve about had my fill of it.

My guess is that a biased authority here has unconscionably allowed the “over the top” Hard Determinists views to run amuck as an “in your face”, “payback” to the non-Calvinist by denying the violence done to the truth. To be fair I’ve considered that maybe the non-Cals have forced this hand by being overly accusative at times, but two wrongs never make a right and what I believe should be the “*priority” is being willfully neglected. And yep, I know I don’t have to place myself under the “authority” that be here…I’ve been praying to a Higher Authority about the situation.

Benjamin,
Although I read what you are saying and am trying to understand your point of view.....Are you sure you are not ever-reacting to what is being posted. Because it is not the same as you would present in the way you understand the gospel.....are you certain that it is not valid.

I am sure you are speaking of our previous interaction where i listed 8-10 things about presenting the gospel....and you took great offence at a couple of the points.
Maybe you did not understand them correctly? I stand by what I posted and would be willing to offer a scriptural defence for all the points I posted and would be willing to add to it if you would like...we could discuss/ debate it in a seperate thread and see what we can agree on and what we cannot agree on at this time.
If I am in error...and you or anyone here can show me scripturally where I am in error ...I would gladly be corrected.
Would you be willing to do the same?

From your response I think you are not representing what I posted accurately when you say this;

and arrogantly preaching a dark message that some have no hope because of not being pre-elected) being presented on this board as if they were orthodox views.

If you would like to do it...I will go back and post the whole list and see what we can come up with.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hinder

Throughout scripture there is an elect and we all can verify this. They had a message to trust God over our own understanding. No where is scripture can we place claim that trust is a work. That we have lifted up things that most men can't even understand or even get a grip on higher than the two things that is dear to our God. First is to love Him and next is to love others as ourselves.

The words of Jesus is more powerful than our understanding. It is Spirit and life and which Jesus who is our authority have given men to spread.

There is two problems I see is men given a bunch of rules and regulations that have to be complete in order to be saved or trying to convince a man coming to Christ and has come because God loved the world that He sent His son that God doesn't love the world that He sent His Son, but the elect who have been cut out before and not able to enter His salvation not because they are not the elect, but because of unbelief. Now that Jesus has been lifted up, the Holy Spirit poured back on the whole earth and all authority has been given to Jesus. I tell you anyone who trust in Christ shall be saved and anyone who does not will stay in condemnation, there is no one one in all the earth that has an excuse not to come to Jesus and be saved.

Acts 10 :34
Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.


39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

 

[Aaron]

The name is in honor of the "rock of offense," the one who caused those who think they knew it all to stumble so as to save their souls. Read Romans 9-11 again and you will see that the "rock of offense" (Christ) was merciful causing Israel to stumble because in doing so they might be provoked to envy and saved (Rm. 11:14).

Holy cow. Talk of missing the point. And you want to insist that Noncalvinists describe the same Christ that Calvinists describe? "stumble so as to save"???? Man, if you miss the mark with this one, can there be hope for you?

The one who stumbles is NOT saved. He found Christ and His message offensive, and so is disobedient and goes about to establish his own righteousness. Be very, very careful that you are not are not clinging to even one meritorious act of your own, that of choosing Christ. You will admit that your choice was not an act of God, but your own. In your interactions here you describe a christ who is not sovereign over one's salvation, a cross that doesn't save, and an offering that only levels the playing field enough so that men can have their own contribution to their redemption.

Are you sure you have not stumbled?

 

[Skandelon]

Holy cow. Talk of missing the point. And you want to insist that Noncalvinists describe the same Christ that Calvinists describe? "stumble so as to save"???? Man, if you miss the mark with this one, can there be hope for you?

It's these types of answers that reflect poorly on you and this board as a whole Aaron. Let's just discuss the topic without the personal insults and implication that I'm not a true Christian, ok?

The one who stumbles is NOT saved.

Has he stumbled beyond recovery? Heaven forbid! That's what Paul said.

He found Christ and His message offensive, and so is disobedient and goes about to establish his own righteousness.

Yes. Yet, Paul's hope is that he might be provoked by envy and saved (Rm. 11:14). If a unnatural branch can be grafted in, how much more can a NATURAL branch (the Jew who has stumbled) be grafted back in "if he leaves his unbelief." (vs. 22-23).

In your interactions here you describe a christ who is not sovereign over one's salvation, a cross that doesn't save, and an offering that only levels the playing field enough so that men can have their own contribution to their redemption.

It is clear by your opening line and your use of the non-capatized "christ," that you don't believe that I'm a true follower of the true Christ. If that is what you believe, fine, but it's against the posting rules to go there, and having been a moderator in the past you should know that.

If you want to cordially and respectfully discuss or debate our points of disagreement fine, but if you are just here to inflame, accuse and imply others aren't really believers then you may need to just take a break. Ok?

Are you sure you have not stumbled?

Yes, I have, remember I told you already that I used to be a Calvinist. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Aaron]

Yes, I have, remember I told you already that I used to be a Calvinist. :smilewinkgrin:

Is the Christ of Calvinism a true Christ to you?

 

[Skandelon]

Is the Christ of Calvinism a true Christ to you?

He is the same Christ regardless of the different soteriological camp, Aaron. When I was Calvinist I still believed in Jesus and followed Christ with good intentions, just as I believe is the case with other Calvinists. As I've said before, my brother and my best friend are both Calvinistic believers. They are dear to me and I KNOW they follow Christ because I see the fruit in their lives. Just because they understand the inner workings of God's saving grace differently than I do doesn't make them heathens.

It may not seem like it to you because of our limited interaction on this forum, but I actually like Calvinists. I like their focus on God's glory and their stance against easy beleivism and the "seeker sensitivity" movement. In fact, if you read Arminus he sounds a lot like many Calvinistic believers today. In the great scheme of things, we are much closer to each other than you'd probably like to admit.

 

[quantumfaith]

He is the same Christ regardless of the different soteriological camp, Aaron. When I was Calvinist I still believed in Jesus and followed Christ with good intentions, just as I believe is the case with other Calvinists. As I've said before, my brother and my best friend are both Calvinistic believers. They are dear to me and I KNOW they follow Christ because I see the fruit in their lives. Just because they understand the inner workings of God's saving grace differently than I do doesn't make them heathens.

It may not seem like it to you because of our limited interaction on this forum, but I actually like Calvinists. I like their focus on God's glory and their stance against easy beleivism and the "seeker sensitivity" movement. In fact, if you read Arminus he sounds a lot like many Calvinistic believers today. In the great scheme of things, we are much closer to each other than you'd probably like to admit.

:applause::applause::applause: