A sincere question for Catholics

[Carson Weber]

The Athanasian Creed is the heritage of all Christians.

Let's see what else Athanasius believed..

"You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made,it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ ... When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body." (Sermon to the Newly Baptized)

Amen brother Athanasius!

 

[John Gilmore]

Athanasius did not write the Athanasian Creed. See the Catholic Encyclopedia.

 

[Ray Berrian]

John Gilmore,

I agree with your post. If people do not believe that Jesus is the Christ and that He alone can save a person, they remain in a lost condition.

Smiling and faithful reader of the Koran who remains a Muslim will drop in Hell as quickly as the drug dealer in your neighboring city who remains in his sins.

 

[Carson Weber]

Athanasius did not write the Athanasian Creed.

Did I say he wrote it? I implied that he believed the content of the creed, which was his main defense.

"Whether the Creed can be ascribed to St. Athanasius or not, and most probably it cannot, it undoubtedly owes it existence to Athanasian influences, for the expressions and doctrinal colouring exhibit too marked a correspondence, in subject-matter and in phraseology, with the literature of the latter half of the fourth century and especially with the writings of the saint, to be merely accidental. These internal evidences seem to justify the conclusion that it grew out of several provincial synods, chiefly that of Alexandria, held about the year 361, and presided over by St. Athanasius."

The same Church that produced the Athanasian Creed confessed and believed in the real, substantial presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist in her catechesis, sermons, and daily liturgy.

To accept the Athanasian Creed and spurn the Bread of Life is to be a Cafeteria Christian.. pick and choose, pick and choose. It's essentially, to be a Protestant.

 

[Kathryn]

I have a question for you guys. Do you believe a retarded person who does not have the thought capacity of understanding who Jesus Christ is, have any chance of salvation by Grace through the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross? Do you believe he or she is inevitably damned? Or does Jesus Christ judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart?

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12


God Bless

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

Yes, we are selective in what we believe. At least we evaluate according to Scripture what is true and what is false. Sometimes we catch the impression that if the Pope said the foundation of Heaven were made of Limburger cheeze most of you would believe him. Are we correct here?

 

[Ray Berrian]

Kathryn,

Not all Christians would agree with me, but I believe those who are mentally incompetent will go into the Presence of Jesus. David's illegitimate son at death when to Heaven even without water baptism. David said, 'He, meaning his son, cannot come to me; but I will go to be with him.' I think most would say that the mentally imparred are almost like minor children.

 

[Singer]

I have a question for you guys. Do you believe a retarded person who
does not have the thought capacity of understanding who Jesus Christ is,
have any chance of salvation by Grace through the merits of Jesus Christ
on the cross? Do you believe he or she is inevitably damned? Or does Jesus
Christ judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart? (Kathryn)

Thoughts and intentions of the heart (belief and confession) is what leads to
eternal life anyway. Whether it comes from the retard, the Catholic or the
Non- Catholic is of no matter. None of them will gain merit or find favor with God
in dragging along a title, a method of baptism or a rosary. Isn't God a judge of
the heart......not of the possessions. What happens to those who intend to be
first in everything?

It's still "Whosoever believes " !!!..........and the writer was not speaking of
''believing in the Holy Catholic Church". Scripture has said to ''believe''
1. That Jesus is the son of God
2. That Jesus has risen
3. That ye believe on Him

Best said in St John 6:29:

This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent.

How could that ever be misconstrued into the teaching that it is necessary
to join this or that church. Such constitutes a "different gospel".

 

[Kathryn]

Singer:
Just to clarify your position, do you believe a retarded person who does not have the thought capacity of understanding who Jesus Christ is,
have any chance of salvation by Grace through the merits of Jesus Christ
on the cross? Or, do you believe he or she is inevitably damned?

[ June 23, 2003, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
Singer:
So, do you believe a retarded person who
does not have the thought capacity of understanding who Jesus Christ is,
have any chance of salvation by Grace through the merits of Jesus Christ
on the cross? Do you believe he or she is inevitably damned?

No I don't. You yourself gave light that it may be the thoughts and intents
of the heart that determines salvation and who is to know ? If the retard could
not comprehend Jesus to the goal of salvation, he could not understand the more
complex claims of Catholicism via Salvation.

Alternate question might be:

Would a Protestant who has complete faculties to understand salvation through
the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross be damned to hell for his failure to join
any earthly organization ?

 

[Kathryn]

Would a Protestant who has complete faculties to understand salvation through
the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross be damned to hell for his failure to join
any earthly organization ?

No, not unless he knew that organization was established by Jesus Christ as His Church and decided to reject it. Jesus Christ is the one who judges and reads the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

P.S. I still don't know what your answer of "no" was in relation to..... any chance of salvation or damnation for the retarded person who could not comprehend Jesus Christ?

[ June 23, 2003, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Kathryn,
I think I already touched on this, with the question about the American Indians, but I will say it again.

Those who do not know, or cannot comprehend (small children, the mentally retarded), will not be held accountable for the things they did in their lives that are considered sin.

If they don't know they are sinning, they are not going to be held accountable for that sin. If they cannot even comprehend sin, then they are not accountable for ANY of their sin!

Since Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin, past, present and future, of ALL mankind, then the mentally retarded person who doesn't know sin from tying their shoes, will be granted Grace.

Remember: God WINKS at mans ignorance.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Kathryn]

Remember: God WINKS at mans ignorance.

Why then do some here condemn people who are ignorant of the gospel through no fault of their own? You guys make all these exceptions to faith alone for salvation for the children of the world who die and the profoundly retarded. How about those who are ignorant of Jesus Christ? Isn't it up to Jesus Christ to read their thoughts and intentions of the heart? What gives us the right to condemn them?

So too, those of you who say children are an exception and retarded are an exception, then what about Muslim children, Hindu children, retarded Buddhists, etc. ? If a small Hindu child could be saved by grace from the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross, then why when he turns say 14 with no other difference than having a birthday, would Jesus Christ condemn him to hell for eternity if he died for being ignorant of Jesus Christ? I believe Jesus Christ will read the thoughts and intentions of the heart of each one of us.

God Bless

[ June 23, 2003, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Kathryn,

I would venture to say that you and I are more in agreement, then not!

What ever the upbringing of a child, or retarded person, whatever the religion of the family, if they are not capable of comprehending the nature of sin, and what the consequence is (death), then they are not accountable for sin. Since we are all born in sin, we need a Savior, and those people, who are either ignorant (have not heard), too young (to understand) or retarded (cannot understand) will all be given the Grace of God.

All on the merit of a 'wink'

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Kathryn]

I would venture to say that you and I are more in agreement, then not!

What ever the upbringing of a child, or retarded person, whatever the religion of the family, if they are not capable of comprehending the nature of sin, and what the consequence is (death), then they are not accountable for sin. Since we are all born in sin, we need a Savior, and those people, who are either ignorant (have not heard), too young (to understand) or retarded (cannot understand) will all be given the Grace of God.

All on the merit of a 'wink'

Well, this is the basis of what the Cardinal was saying. Being ignorant of Jesus Christ is not an automatic ticket to hell. All salvation is through Jesus Christ, he is the way, the truth, and the life. It is Jesus Christ who judges and reads the thoughts and intentions of the heart. We however are to evangalize and baptize and teach all He has commanded.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Kathryn,

Then that is what we should be asking. Did the Cardinal witness to these people? Were there conversions that day? Did any of them wish to be baptized? Or did he leave them in their ignorance, and make the statements that he made?

I doubt very seriously that the Muslim had never heard of Jesus. The budist either. This is 2003, if I'm not mistaken that interview took place a few years ago, but none the less, the message of the Cross is all over the world. The SDA church alone has a Missionary prescence in 99% of the worlds countries. The CC has them in just about every one too.

Think of all the TV, radio, Satellite, and internet ministries that are reaching the world every day.

I find it hard to believe that many people this day in age have not heard of Jesus.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Who then is righteous?
How does one become righteous?

Our 'righteousness' is as filthy rags. The only righteousness we could have is to be in Christ, and claim HIS righteousness. A person who is NOT a Christian, ie they are not in Christ, will not have the ability to claim the righteousness of Christ for themselves, and therefore will still be all of those things those verses mention. AND NOT elegible for the Kingdom of God.

Jesus is the ONLY Way. THE ONLY.

1. But how does one become righteous in Christ.

2. Is it possible that there is another way other than Christ? Why or why not?
DHK

 

[Kathryn]

Then that is what we should be asking. Did the Cardinal witness to these people? Were there conversions that day? Did any of them wish to be baptized? Or did he leave them in their ignorance, and make the statements that he made?

Read his speeches and you will see that he witnesses his faith in Jesus Christ and proclaims that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. Are there any conversions? Probably, the Church grows every day especially in Africa which is where he is from. Did he offend people by his message of the gospel? Yes, some walked out. Does he do altar calls. No. Catholics don't believe in altar calls. Any conversions took place in the heart, not on stage. Has everyone in the world heard the true gospel of Jesus Christ. No, otherwise there would be no need to evangalize.

God Bless

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:

The same Church that produced the Athanasian Creed confessed and believed in the real, substantial presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist in her catechesis, sermons, and daily liturgy.

To accept the Athanasian Creed and spurn the Bread of Life is to be a Cafeteria Christian.. pick and choose, pick and choose. It's essentially, to be a Protestant.

Agreed. That's why I'm not a Protestant. But, is the Roman church Catholic when she denies the Athanasian Creed (which faith, unless a man firmly believe, he can not be saved)? The Roman church should be honest with her members and admit that she is no longer Catholic.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church (See link to Book of Concord) subscribes unconditionally to the Athanasian Creed. For confesssional Lutherans, this is a positive law of the church and will not change.

[ June 23, 2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
I have a question for you guys. Do you believe a retarded person who does not have the thought capacity of understanding who Jesus Christ is, have any chance of salvation by Grace through the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross? Do you believe he or she is inevitably damned? Or does Jesus Christ judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart?

Many Protestants make the mistake of believing faith is a by-product of their own human reason. I believe that I can not of my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to Him but the Holy Spirit has called me through the Gospel. We may not be able see the faith of children or of the retarded but surely the Holy Spirit works through His Word and Sacraments to create faith.

[ June 23, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]