A six part discussion of sanctification

[Iconoclast]

Bro. Curtis

Sanctification-life long process.

:thumbsup:

It can be fought. Some Christians will never grow.

Overall...I know what you are saying, however I do not think it is possible for no growth to take place, unless it was someone like the saved thief on the cross.

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.


and again here in 1 cor11;
1 Corinthians 11:32

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Some will.

I believe all must...I do not see a scriptural option:wavey:

Some will eventually have victory over habitual sin. Some will ignore the Holy Spirit, and will live miserable lives. God is not mocked.

never:thumbsup:

 

[T Alan]

In a nutshell, Lordship Salvation doctrine is an overreaction to 'Easy Believism'. The idea is that the Christian burden is hard and difficult instead of easy and light as Christ said it was.

I've announced that I hold to "Lordship Salvation" in that I believe that once converted and indwelt a man will live as Jesus is LORD;Ruler;Master of his life.

Beyond that definition I won't go. No work is necessary to please God more. The blood of Jesus covering us Is all that it takes for him to be pleased to the utmost.

As for it being "hard" to live for Christ in Holiness, I don't find that. I hate evil and may the Holy Spirit of Yahweh be my Walk.

 

[righteousdude2]

Some Christians will never grow.

That response jumped out and caught my attention! No truer words have been spoken. I have seen more believers (in todays church) that are still stuck in the infancy stage, and while an infant is cute, an infant in Christ (who has been in that state for 20 or 30 years) in an adult body is no longer cute or cuddly! In fact it should be of concern to those who know that person, and yet the church seems to tolerate this more today than ever before, IMO!

Thanks for the comments, BC, I agree with all you said, and if anyone is fighting growth, it is up to the adults and leadership to nurture and coax them out of the ridiculous stage they are stuck in and nudge them towards growing. We do this by pointing out to them Scripturally, that they need to look around and see they are being left behind!

Infortunately, we tend to have immature believers because we have immature fellowships or churches! :tear:

 

[Iconoclast]

That response jumped out and caught my attention! No truer words have been spoken. I have seen more believers (in todays church) that are still stuck in the infancy stage, and while an infant is cute, an infant in Christ (who has been in that state for 20 or 30 years) in an adult body is no longer cute or cuddly!


Dude.....I do not think you can offer a scriptural account of a Christian who never grows.
Do you have any portion of scripture that says anything like this as you suggest....no truer words have been spoken.

 

[kyredneck]

That response jumped out and caught my attention! No truer words have been spoken. I have seen more believers (in todays church) that are still stuck in the infancy stage....

...mostly because there's no real substantial nourishment for sheep food to be found in that warmed over again and again and again hash gospel to populate heaven. There's only so many ways it can be presented and then it becomes old.

Dude.....I do not think you can offer a scriptural account of a Christian who never grows.
Do you have any portion of scripture that says anything like this as you suggest....no truer words have been spoken.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:
5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night: and they that are drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1 Thess 5

What do you think that means Icon, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him"?

 

[Iconoclast]

...mostly because there's no real substantial nourishment for sheep food to be found in that warmed over again and again and again hash gospel to populate heaven. There's only so many ways it can be presented and then it becomes old.



4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief:
5 for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep, as do the rest, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night: and they that are drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, since we are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1 Thess 5

What do you think that means Icon, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him"?

originally Paul was answering this question from Chap 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

He was answering the question about those who believed but went through physical death...in Chap 5...he is speaking of light and darkness, contrasting believers and the world...we are of the day...they of the night

he is urging believers to be vigilant, everyday...he does that several times like here;
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

:sleeping_2::sleeping_2::sleeping_2:

 

[kyredneck]

...in Chap 5...he is speaking of light and darkness, contrasting believers and the world...we are of the day...they of the night

he is urging believers to be vigilant, everyday...he does that several times like here;
33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

:sleeping_2::sleeping_2::sleeping_2:

10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1 Thess 5

So what do you think that means Icon, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1 Thess 5

So what do you think that means Icon, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him"?

Change the size of the red letters Larry....too small for my ageing eyes. A little bit bigger please.

 

[Iconoclast]

10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 1 Thess 5

So what do you think that means Icon, "whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him"?

I think it clearly points to the fact that when God saves his elect they are His...if we are alive or have died, if we are awake or asleep we are eternally His.

I do NOT BELIEVE Paul is inventing classes of Christians.
I want the awake Christians over here,
the sleeping Christians over there,
the comatose Christians over here,
the still born Christians somewhere else.
Christians who lie everyday over here,
cursing and drunk Christians over there...0

If any person is not growing in grace, and diligently following after holiness, they are no Christian at all.
They can walk an aisle, raise their hand,sign a card, rededicate themselves....all these fleshly tricks.
God disciplines all His children and works in each and everyone.

To encourage goats to externally conform, is not going to get it done.:thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

I think it clearly points to the fact that when God saves his elect they are His...if we are alive or have died...

Lol, so Paul was commanding them not to die in v. 6? Wrong. Neither the context of the passage nor the Greek supports that at all.

You quoted from 1 Thess 4 which is ‘koimao’ and is often used in reference to physical death:

and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; Mt 27:52

11 These things spake he: and after this he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus is fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 The disciples therefore said unto him, Lord, if he is fallen asleep, he will recover.
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death: but they thought that he spake of taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus therefore said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. Jn 11

The passage in 1 Thess 5 is ‘katheudo’ - to yield to sloth and sin, to be indifferent to one's salvation, which is never used for physical death:

And all were weeping, and bewailing her: but he said, Weep not; for she is not dead, but sleepeth. Lu 8:52

“Wake’ in 1 Thess 5 is ‘gregoreuo’ - give strict attention to, be cautious, active:

Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. 1 Cor 16:13

Here, I’ll paraphrase what Paul means 1 Thess 5:10:

who died for us, that, whether we give strict attention to and be active in our salvation or yield to sloth and sin and be indifferent to our salvation, we should live together with him. 1 Thess 5:10

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for this. I've only breifly looked through it but it looks very good. :thumbs:



Exactly. It is a fundamental denial of what happens in regeneration. We really do become new! It's not just flowery language or poetry, we are new creatures in Christ!

Except that we are always in a stage of "carnal christianity", as even once saved and infilled by the, Holy Spirit, and with our new natures, none have us will obtain that sinless perfection state here while alive!

Think that we need to see it as being a progression, as while justification is a one time done deal, the walk of faith and being more confirmed into image of jesus goes on all our lives, and we still will find ourselves at times sinning, but hopefully, less , and quicker to repent and forsake each time that happens!

 

[Iconoclast]

kyredneck

Lol, so Paul was commanding them not to die in v. 6? Wrong. Neither the context of the passage nor the Greek supports that at all.

excuse me kyred.... I spoke of both ....physical death, [1thess4]and the metaphorical usage [1thess5]...light and darkness, awake/asleep

Here, I’ll paraphrase what Paul means 1 Thess 5:10:

who died for us, that, whether we give strict attention to and be active in our salvation or yield to sloth and sin and be indifferent to our salvation, we should live together with him. 1 Thess 5:10

[/QUOTE]

I have no problem with your paraphrase....he is urging them forward...not describing a settled condition.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

Except that we are always in a stage of "carnal christianity",

This is a false and unbiblical statement.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

as even once saved and infilled by the, Holy Spirit, and with our new natures, none have us will obtain that sinless perfection state here while alive!

true

Think that we need to see it as being a progression, as while justification is a one time done deal, the walk of faith and being more confirmed into image of jesus goes on all our lives, and we still will find ourselves at times sinning, but hopefully, less , and quicker to repent and forsake each time that happens![

true

 

[kyredneck]

....he is urging them forward...not describing a settled condition.

....and by that you mean it is impossible for His children to 'settle in that condition', right?

 

[Iconoclast]

....and by that you mean it is impossible for His children to 'settle in that condition', right?

Yes ...that is what I see the scripture teaching....God will cut someone off in the flesh before that would go on. The Spitit of God is active day by day in a real Christian.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau,


I believe this verse means what it says.....without which...NO MAN... shall see the Lord.

also;

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Kyred......there are means of grace that are ordained as much a part of our salvation as justification itself. If a professed Christian does not persevere in the faith, it gives evidence that they were false professors....

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1


This is a false and unbiblical statement.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.




true


true

I define one being a carbal Christian as whenever we choose to sin against God, and at those times, we are indeed operating "in the flesh", but that is not our new states in Christ, but us following the dictaes of the old nature, not crucifing it again....

 

[kyredneck]

[/B]

Yes ...that is what I see the scripture teaching....God will cut someone off in the flesh before that would go on. The Spitit of God is active day by day in a real Christian.

OK, we may not be so far apart. He DOES indeed chastise His children.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau,

This is an admonition for the congregation to police themselves and 'mark' those like Esau and have no company with them. Those 'failing of the grace of God' shouldn't oughta be in the Church to begin with.

I believe this verse means what it says.....without which...NO MAN... shall see the Lord.

There's an inherent 'holiness' within the regenerate heart that doesn't need to be taught or acquired from 'head knowledge'. I assure you, all who have been born from above WILL 'see the Lord'.

also;

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Kyred......there are means of grace that are ordained as much a part of our salvation as justification itself. If a professed Christian does not persevere in the faith, it gives evidence that they were false professors....

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I guess we need to define the parameters of the 'holiness' you refer to. Do your parameters go beyond those laid out in Ro 13:8-10 or Mt 7:12?

 

[Iconoclast]

kyredneck

OK, we may not be so far apart.

:thumbs:...not at all...I agree with 95%of what you post.
When we disagree I think we are not communicating well. I am stubborn and from up north trying to communicate with hill jacks from wv,[con1], rednecks and hill billies, from ky,and south Carolina, [you and OR,]and Ala...,and now Ga.

He DOES indeed chastise His children.

This is an admonition for the congregation to police themselves and 'mark' those like Esau and have no company with them. Those 'failing of the grace of God' shouldn't oughta be in the Church to begin with

.
:thumbs:

There's an inherent 'holiness' within the regenerate heart that doesn't need to be taught or acquired from 'head knowledge'. I assure you, all who have been born from above WILL 'see the Lord'.

:applause:

I guess we need to define the parameters of the 'holiness' you refer to. Do your parameters go beyond those laid out in Ro 13:8-10 or Mt 7:12?

No...you picked out the correct verses as usual,
I would use and defend Romans 13 and the positive law keeping as I have heard it taught...Law is loves eyes.

 

[kyredneck]

Ok, but there's STILL something that I don't feel right about LS doctrine. I perceive you guys say that there is no such thing as a 'carnal' child of God, right?

If so, let's set the parameters for 'carnal'. Would you agree that Solomon was 'carnal'.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ok, but there's STILL something that I don't feel right about LS doctrine. I perceive you guys say that there is no such thing as a 'carnal' child of God, right?

If so, let's set the parameters for 'carnal'. Would you agree that Solomon was 'carnal'.

Some of them even deny that we still have the sin nature!