A Step CLoser to Civil War?

[poncho]

I have no intention of living in fear, been there, done that, and got tired of it.
Just that all this talk of civil war is counter-productive in many ways.
Poncho, we are Christians, you, I, and I trust most everybody on this board.
Civil war is something we don't engage in, because the kingdom you and I belong to is not of this world, and the real King you and I are subjects of is not of this world, either.
While it is right to feel disgust for what is going on around us (and I share that with you, as, I am sure, many on this board), the overthrow of a duly constituted government is just not supposed to be even in the backs of our mind.
It is Scriptural to criticize those who wrongfully rule as in Obama's case (John the Baptist certainly withstood the king of his time face to face), and as humans there are times we might resort to name calling and all that, but to want civil war is something we should not even be part of.
Stay away from that talk, brother.
I appreciate your fervor and fire against injustice, but remember, again, this is a fallen world, and injustice has been part of it since Cain executed his own brother for envy.
Cronyism, crony capitalism, globalism, fascism, nazism, communism, capitalism, by whatever else name it comes, all these are part of a fallen world of which we are in.
Inevitably we are either partakers of it, or victims, but either way, we serve a King these systems do not, and in due time, all these will fall, and, to borrow a language of scripture, we shall see their carcases burning.
Again, brother, keep calm and don't let your indignation get the better of you.

Duly constituted? :laugh:

 

[Berean]

I don't think this country will ever be involved in another civil war. We surrender before it is declared. We no longer take a stand for the things that are near and dear. The two most phony wars we have engaged in in the last 50 years are the War on Poverty and the War on Drugs. Both are a farce and we are losing both badly.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Duly constituted? :laugh:

Why do you think the US government (as opposed to an administration) is not duly constituted ?
Obama may have stolen the election, and I maintain he did, but no one took him to task for it, so, as it stands right now, in accordance with the US constitution, his office is duly constituted.
Anyone who takes up arms right now against his government and administration is breaking the law, and a Christian participating, directly or indirectly, in such a venture had better pause and examine whether he be in the faith (that is to say, whether he knows his Scripture, or not).

 

[saturneptune]

Why do you think the US government (as opposed to an administration) is not duly constituted ?
Obama may have stolen the election, and I maintain he did, but no one took him to task for it, so, as it stands right now, in accordance with the US constitution, his office is duly constituted.
Anyone who takes up arms right now against his government and administration is breaking the law, and a Christian participating, directly or indirectly, in such a venture had better pause and examine whether he be in the faith (that is to say, whether he knows his Scripture, or not).

If corporations, international bankers, Wall Street, etc, has taken power from we the people and are dictating everything that goes on in our lives, then we are to blame. If they have this power, we ceded it to these entities. If we were being the citizens and Christians we are suppose to be, we would have guarded the Constitution with our very lives and lived up to our responsibilites. Instead we started focusing on me, myself and I instead of the Lord and our fellow man. The more we focused, the more dull our senses got about our rights. We started depending on the government. The bottom line is, if we are ready and willing to give up our power, then organizations like the ones mentioned above are more than happy to take it from us. So, it really becomes immaterial whether these organizations are conspiring against us or not. The fact is the fault lies square on our shoulders. In addition, we elect leaders that reflect us, so what do you expect?

A question that I have wondered about since the US left the Phillipines, what has become of places like Subic Bay, the old Army and Navy haunts, from say 40+ years ago?

 

[Arbo]

I don't think this country will ever be involved in another civil war. We surrender before it is declared. We no longer take a stand for the things that are near and dear.

Unfortunately I think you're right.

I don't think that this generation of American citizens possesses the character to rebel against an oppressive government in defense of its Constitutional rights.

 

[mont974x4]

I have always enjoyed Full Metal Jacket. My father, who was a drill instructor in the Corps, and I used to watch it together. I am not sure what my enjoyment of movies has to do with anything.

As to the matter of whistle blowing? Crimes of occur in war. It is a sad reality. I favor accountability and justice. What that boy did was an act of betrayal. There are proper channels for such things. I have witnessed it being used for a case of murder during war and justice was served.

 

[mont974x4]

Unfortunately I think you're right.

I don't think that this generation of American citizens possesses the character to rebel against an oppressive government in defense of its Constitutional rights.

I would agree with having doubts about the younger generations. It's us older guys that aren't so indoctrinated that are likely to take the stand.

 

[pinoybaptist]

A question that I have wondered about since the US left the Phillipines, what has become of places like Subic Bay, the old Army and Navy haunts, from say 40+ years ago?

It's one "L" and 2 "P"s. lol.
Spelling police. hehehe.
anyway, Subic Bay has been converted to a duty-free zone. I think it's got factories inside also. The government has maintained the forests, hopefully as well as the US Navy did.
Clark Air Base has been converted into an International Airport with some more duty-free shops.
John Hay Air Base has, as I understand, become more tourism oriented.

I was skeptical of the current president and all his vows to minimize corruption and all that, but it seems I was wrong. He IS actually doing it, and more businesses are coming in as a result. The Philippine economy, as I hear it, is perking up.

More locals are doing the tourist scene, therefore more money is circulating, and that is because they woke up to the fact that it is THEIR country, not just the bourgeouissie's nor the foreign tourists.

I say this because back when I wore a younger man's clothes (apologies to Billy Joel) the poor were mostly of the mindset that the tourist spots and the beach resorts were, for some reason, off-limits to them.

Have you seen the Big Boss by Bruce Lee, where there was a scene where he wanted to go see a zoo in China, and the guard pointed him to a sign that said: Dogs and Chinese not allowed ?

It wasn't that extreme, but that was the general atmosphere then, when I was so "in" with this rage against the dictatorship, his cronies, crony capitalism, multinationals, and, hey, don't get rubbed the wrong way now, alright....US imperialism and low-intensity conflict.

I know what Poncho is saying, and like I said, been there, done that, no more for me.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I would agree with having doubts about the younger generations. It's us older guys that aren't so indoctrinated that are likely to take the stand.

Actually, and I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here, America started to soften from the Vietnam War.

All that blood spilled, all those kids who "bought the farm" over there, and US leadership buckled up to the protests here at home.
You all were not defeated, in fact, by the Cong or the NVA.

The US was defeated by its own people, by the anti-war songs of the Beatles and the likes of Don Mc'lean and James Taylor and Janis Joplin and Bruce Springsteen and the Monkees and the propaganda of the likes of John Kerry and Jane Fonda, the former of which is going to be the Secretary of State because what Obama wants, Obama gets.

The US was defeated by drugs and its obsession with the wet works of the CIA, the NSA, etc., by its "authors" who come out with confession after confession of how they worked to undermine other countries, and by its ultra-liberal media and "journalists".

These are the same things which are defeating the US today, IMHO.
So we send young men and women to war, and we expect that war to be a clean war.
No "innocent" blood spilled, rules of engagement that practically tie up the troops' hands, etc., etc.

And as soon as the liberals and the politically correct freaks raise their voices and the liberal media print their "articles", man, the mood is, never mind the blood spilled, let's just get the hell outta there.

Days ago, somebody in one thread insinuated that armed resistance seems to be the only option, and I said, "won't happen here", and somebody said he is bothered by that reply or mindset.

And I'm saying it again, "won't happen here".
Why not ?
Because armed resistance needs popular support because armed resistance does not begin with an en masse uprising.
It begins with pockets, here, there, then everywhere.
It needs momentum, and momentum comes from popular support.
Sadly the general population would rather sit in their armchair and become armchair experts, they'd rather have their Oprah Winfreys and their gyms and their cables and their iphones and their twitters and their Lady Gagas and, oh, yeah, their drugs, their porns.
That's one more reason I am against armed resistance.
It's not only unChristian, it will result in a blood bath for nothing, at the worst, or at best, more liberties taken away from the people, because we have at the White House, a ruthless, determined fascist.
Funny how most Americans talk of being against fascism and authoritarianism, and not know one when everyday they see its face on TV.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

My brothers and sisters...are we invisioning the hand of God in all of this...or are we allowing the devil free rein over our emotions...lets have peace in the knowledge that God reigns & we are his.

Blessings to all! :godisgood:

 

[saturneptune]

Have you seen the Big Boss by Bruce Lee, where there was a scene where he wanted to go see a zoo in China, and the guard pointed him to a sign that said: Dogs and Chinese not allowed ?

It wasn't that extreme, but that was the general atmosphere then, when I was so "in" with this rage against the dictatorship, his cronies, crony capitalism, multinationals, and, hey, don't get rubbed the wrong way now, alright....US imperialism and low-intensity conflict.

I know what Poncho is saying, and like I said, been there, done that, no more for me.

Once on a stop over in Norfolk, VA, I was told about fifteen years earlier, say in the 50s, there were signs at civilian establishments around the Naval base that said "dogs and sailors keep off the grass."

 

[pinoybaptist]

Once on a stop over in Norfolk, VA, I was told about fifteen years earlier, say in the 50s, there were signs at civilian establishments around the Naval base that said "dogs and sailors keep off the grass."

woooohhh. man, that is heavy. lol.

 

[mont974x4]

Actually, and I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers here, America started to soften from the Vietnam War.

All that blood spilled, all those kids who "bought the farm" over there, and US leadership buckled up to the protests here at home.
You all were not defeated, in fact, by the Cong or the NVA.

The US was defeated by its own people, by the anti-war songs of the Beatles and the likes of Don Mc'lean and James Taylor and Janis Joplin and Bruce Springsteen and the Monkees and the propaganda of the likes of John Kerry and Jane Fonda, the former of which is going to be the Secretary of State because what Obama wants, Obama gets.

The US was defeated by drugs and its obsession with the wet works of the CIA, the NSA, etc., by its "authors" who come out with confession after confession of how they worked to undermine other countries, and by its ultra-liberal media and "journalists".

These are the same things which are defeating the US today, IMHO.
So we send young men and women to war, and we expect that war to be a clean war.
No "innocent" blood spilled, rules of engagement that practically tie up the troops' hands, etc., etc.

And as soon as the liberals and the politically correct freaks raise their voices and the liberal media print their "articles", man, the mood is, never mind the blood spilled, let's just get the hell outta there.

Days ago, somebody in one thread insinuated that armed resistance seems to be the only option, and I said, "won't happen here", and somebody said he is bothered by that reply or mindset.

And I'm saying it again, "won't happen here".
Why not ?
Because armed resistance needs popular support because armed resistance does not begin with an en masse uprising.
It begins with pockets, here, there, then everywhere.
It needs momentum, and momentum comes from popular support.
Sadly the general population would rather sit in their armchair and become armchair experts, they'd rather have their Oprah Winfreys and their gyms and their cables and their iphones and their twitters and their Lady Gagas and, oh, yeah, their drugs, their porns.
That's one more reason I am against armed resistance.
It's not only unChristian, it will result in a blood bath for nothing, at the worst, or at best, more liberties taken away from the people, because we have at the White House, a ruthless, determined fascist.
Funny how most Americans talk of being against fascism and authoritarianism, and not know one when everyday they see its face on TV.

We, as a nation, have not fought a war since WWII. Our troops have engaged in many battles. Some we have won. Some politicians lost most for us before and after the actual fighting.



I would disagree with armed resistance being unChristian. I would like to expand that to whether or not it is ungodly or not. I would still say no. David, Gideon, even Jonathon are among the names of men who picked up arms to fight against those who would oppress others. Since I believe God does not change then I would maintain that armed resistance can indeed be godly, and if so then by extension it can be Christian.

No everyone picked up arms. I do not find a blanket statement saying to not do so was ungodly.

Therefore, it is my contention that this is a matter of personal conviction between the individual and God.

 

[mont974x4]

My brothers and sisters...are we invisioning the hand of God in all of this...or are we allowing the devil free rein over our emotions...lets have peace in the knowledge that God reigns & we are his.

Blessings to all! :godisgood:

Agreed. I have spent many hours praying and meditating on these things, and still continue to do so. My hope is in His faithfulness and His helping me to not walk in the flesh concerning this issue.


He does reign. He does raise men up to stand for Him and fight. We see that in Scripture. Some have been effective fighting peacefully (like Daniel) others were effective using weapons (like David).

 

[Zaac]

I have a question for you though, "what military would raise their hands up to US Citizens in order to support a corrupt government"....please advise your thoughts.

Interesting. But given that we are to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, at what point , if ever, should Christians take up arms to keep government bullies from taking what is worked for in order to give it to others? We seem to specifically be talking about money here

Are we as Christians supposed to be so consumed by money and stuff that we are ready to take up arms to hold onto that which isn't eternal?

 

[pinoybaptist]

<snip>
Therefore, it is my contention that this is a matter of personal conviction between the individual and God.

So be it.
Since it is my contention that it is unChristian, I cannot say "God bless".
I will say, with all my heart, "good luck to that".

 

[Zaac]

We, as a nation, have not fought a war since WWII. Our troops have engaged in many battles. Some we have won. Some politicians lost most for us before and after the actual fighting.



I would disagree with armed resistance being unChristian. I would like to expand that to whether or not it is ungodly or not. I would still say no. David, Gideon, even Jonathon are among the names of men who picked up arms to fight against those who would oppress others. Since I believe God does not change then I would maintain that armed resistance can indeed be godly, and if so then by extension it can be Christian.

No everyone picked up arms. I do not find a blanket statement saying to not do so was ungodly.

Therefore, it is my contention that this is a matter of personal conviction between the individual and God.

Too often we like to make the default " a matter of personal conviction" when God has spoken to the issue.

So for what reason exactly are we talking about it being okay for Christians to take up arms? You say to fight against those who oppress others. But what oppression are we talking about???

 

[Don]

Interesting. But given that we are to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, at what point , if ever, should Christians take up arms to keep government bullies from taking what is worked for in order to give it to others? We seem to specifically be talking about money here

Are we as Christians supposed to be so consumed by money and stuff that we are ready to take up arms to hold onto that which isn't eternal?

Zaac--if you continue to focus only on the eternal, and give no thought to our daily lives in our fleshly bodies in this rotten world...how long will you or your family be in this world?

The ultimate conclusion of what you said is to stop working, stop going to school, stop buying goods and services, and simply lay down and die, allowing us to pass on to our heavenly home.

Do you have a job? If so, why?

 

[mont974x4]

So be it.
Since it is my contention that it is unChristian, I cannot say "God bless".
I will say, with all my heart, "good luck to that".

I understand and respect that. I was in agreement with you until 6 years ago or so. I would have pointed to 1 Peter and its historical context as my guide.

I cannot speak for others, obviously, when I say...(assuming it comes to a fight) I don't care if I lose. It may, in fact, be part of God's plan to humble this nation. I find it entirely Christ-like to consider fighting to do whatever good a person can do until God calls us home.

Win or lose in the earthly battle my hope, as is yours, is to stand before God with a clear conscience.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

I pity the U.N. forces that might get sent to Kentucky.

The silliness of this whole thread aside, I actually looked up guns per capita by state.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/06/28/states-with-the-most-guns.html

Kentucky was number one by a long shot, which surprised me. I also had expected Florida to be much higher on the list than it really is, at number 42.