A study of the "Revelation" - date & significance, then & now

[Martin Marprelate]

The earliest writers are unanimous that the Apostle John lived most of his life before 70 AD, therefor an early date is possible.

An early date is possible, though unlikely for reasons already given.

It has been argued that John had been banished to Patmos twice.

That seems to be a rather despairing suggestion. Is there any real evidence for it?

Naos is the word meaning Temple.

This is not the case. Naos is translated 'temple' 45 times in the NT, as once as 'shrine' (1 Corinthians 19:24). Hieros is translated 'temple' 71 times, all but one of them in the Gospels or Acts. Naos is repeatedly used figuratively (eg. John 2:19-21; 1 Corinthians 3:16 etc.).

It is used more than a dozen times in Revelation and mostly it is clearly speaking of a structure, and never suggesting Christians themselves. And, not one of those mentions imply the Temple was already destroyed. Calling our bodies the temple of God is figurative speech that is not used or implied in Revelation.

This simply isn't so. Consider Revelation 3:12. How could anyone be a literal pillar in a literal temple? And if anyone could, it wouldn't have lasted very long because Preterism has the temple being destroyed just a few years after the book was written. I don't consider that there is a single reference to the Temple of Jesus' day in Revelation.

There is nothing within the Olivet Discourse to suggest that Jesus is speaking of two separate times. On the contrary, he says all those things will happen within a generation.

The Lord Jesus was asked at least two questions, so it would be surprising if He only gave one answer.

I think eschatology is primarily for the jewish audience. It was the end of their world.

Why would you think that since the Book of Revelation was specifically written to Gentile churches in Asia Minor? And as for the end of the Jews' world, that did not come until 60 years later after the Bar Kochba revolt when Jerusalem was renamed Aelius Hadrianus and Jews were banned from going within 50 miles of it. And as you know, the Jews are still with us today. And why do you think the churches in Corinth, Philippi and Thessalonika were 'eagerly awaiting' the Return of Christ?

We have all the help we need, knowing that Jesus died for our sins and overcame death. And, that God has established a new covenant to replace the one that ended with the Jewish world.

So we should junk the Book of Revelation, should we, since it has nothing tom sat to Christians today? On the contrary, properly understood, Revelation helps us make sense of this present world and gives us great comfort in troubling times.

 

[John of Japan]

Simply that when theology is well taught, it influences the political decisions of the people in a representative democracy. They vote for politicians who support Zionism because they see it as a way to promote what God wants to do in the world. Those politicians help construct policy and put the weight and influence of the United States and Britain on the side of Zionism.

In our country it is quite common for a politician to declare unwavering support for secular Israel in everything she does - without regard to justice for anyone else - in order to attract votes. If a leader does something to reign in secular Israel or reprimand the secular nation for human rights abuses, they are portrayed as an enemy of God and "hater" of Israel.

But Dispensationalism is not Zionist. (Don't believe what you read on the Internet. ) It does not teach that we must have a political solution for Israel, but that God Himself has a solution for Israel.

If you want a political theology, look to dominion theology (based firmly on covenant theology). Dispensationalism is not political.

1. Disp. is doxological in basis, not soteriological nor even Christological, and certainly not anthropological.

2. Every dispensation has a God-given task. The one for this dispensation is not to get Israel back in the land. That is God's job (doxological), not man's (anthropological). The task for us now, in this dispensation, is to "believe in Christ and walk with Christ" (Ryrie, Dispensationalism, p. 62). (Some of my students put the Great Commission on the final, and I allowed that, of course.)

3. It is God who fulfills prophecy. Man cannot do that. Therefore, what is the point of lobbying for Israel? It doesn't accomplish God's purpose in this age.

4. In the dispensational prophecy, Israel goes into the land in belief in the first half of the tribulation. Israel is not currently in the land in belief. It may be completely destroyed by those Arab nations hungering for its oblivion, and that would not stop God's prophecy from fulfillment in the slightest.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Except Nero was never known as "Domitius Nero." His given name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus. His name was changed to Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus when he was 13 and adopted by his great uncle Claudius. He was most often called Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus.

This is correct. I spent much time at University studying Roman historians like Tacitus and Suetonius, and the name they gave to Nero was.........Nero. His other adoptive names would have confused him with other members of the Royal family. Never was he called Domitius. I don't believe that Josephus calls him that either.

 

[John of Japan]

Think the left behind was Dispy though, as big deal was missing the Rapture!

Sorry, that could be historical premil, rather than dispensational. In fact, one can hold to a mid-trib or pre-wrath or post trib rapture and still be dispensational.

 

[asterisktom]

Why would you think that since the Book of Revelation was specifically written to Gentile churches in Asia Minor? And as for the end of the Jews' world, that did not come until 60 years later after the Bar Kochba revolt when Jerusalem was renamed Aelius Hadrianus and Jews were banned from going within 50 miles of it. And as you know, the Jews are still with us today. And why do you think the churches in Corinth, Philippi and Thessalonika were 'eagerly awaiting' the Return of Christ?

Actually Revelation was written specifically to the Jews as well. Considering the content of the message of the book I am surprised why anyone would think otherwise. Certainly not denying th immediate application to the Gentiles, however. Nor important application for us.

The end of Jew's world ("age") was certainly in view. In light of the context and of cross-references this refers to the "elements" of the Jewish system. All of that came to a fiery end with the burning of the Temple, the crucial center of their worship. Without the Temple - the altar and all that pertains to it, and all who ministered on it - there is no way for them to approach God - according to the Law. Ever since the Parousia there has been only one priesthood, the Melchizedekan one of Christ. The Levitical had become forever deprecated, made obsolete.

What happened with Bar Kochba was irrelevant as far as the topic here is concerned. It was just an unfortunate event of Christ-denying Jews having their faulty eschatology bloodily corrected.

 

[John of Japan]

We wouldn't accept a Baptist pastor who advocates sprinkling infants for baptism, even though most Christians today probably practices that, and the tradition goes back through most of church history. We wouldn't tolerate a pastor who advocates slavery, even though it's arguably compatible with the Bible. Why do we accept or tolerate a pastor who flagrantly contradicts core principles of Christianity and explicit language of the Bible with Dispensational teaching?

Yes, many Dispensationalists are well-meaning [Slanderous falsehood edited]. Many Mormons and baby-sprinklers are well meaning (I'm not so sure about advocates of slavery, though). The proper response to someone well-meaning is the straight up truth.

First of all, you've not proven any of this. The absolute bedrock teaching of dispensationalism is literally interpreting the Bible and obeying it. But frankly, I doubt if you know much of anything about the theology, judging from what you've written.

I have you on ignore, but others have been interacting and I noticed it. You are so vicious against us it is hard to believe.

I'm a dispensationalist and a college teacher of it. You have said that we (in the third person) are satanic and heretical. Do you have the guts to say that right now, to me here on the BB, not in the third person? Am I satanic and heretical and un-Biblical?

 

[kyredneck]

Pretierism MUST have the earlier dating,..

Actually it doesn't.

 

[Covenanter]

Continuing with Rev. 6 & the 7 seals.

Jesus is in effect showing John a picture book of what will happen. He gave plenty of warnings to the Israelites while he was with them. The Apostles underline those warnings, from Moses & the the prophets.

The martyrs seen when seal 5 is opened are assured that judgment & vengeance of the persecutors would follow in a little season, indicating a few years rather than 2 or more millennia.

And the sixth seal is opened to reveal devastating judgment.
We can relate the effects in the heavens with the judgment of Babylon in Isaiah 13 - a judgment Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, recorded in Daniel 5.

Remember Jesus blighting the fig tree? And encouraging faith-prayer for the removal of this mountain? Which mountain can he mean but the temple mount they were standing on which would cease to be a focus of worship. (John 4)

And who did Jesus warn would desire the rocks to cover them?
Luke 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. 31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

These events take time to read, but are occurring concurrently. There are many believers still in the city, witnessing to the increasingly rebellious Jews, and watching for the signs Jesus gave them to know when to flee the city. That brings us to Rev.7, still within the 6 seals.

 

[Covenanter]

Rev. 7, still the 6th seal.

Read Mat. 24 again.
Jesus had said :
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Note v. 31 & read Rev. 7
1. And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
The believers are to be gathered before the final storm hits Jerusalem.
The 144,000 signify that a perfect & complete number of the tribes of Israel will be gathered before the destruction. We see them added to a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes/kindreds, and people, and tongues,

The city that had so persistently rejected its Messiah, & persecuted his followers is about to suffer its doom, as prophesied repeatedly by its Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Revmitchell]

Simply that when theology is well taught, it influences the political decisions of the people in a representative democracy. They vote for politicians who support Zionism because they see it as a way to promote what God wants to do in the world. Those politicians help construct policy and put the weight and influence of the United States and Britain on the side of Zionism.

In our country it is quite common for a politician to declare unwavering support for secular Israel in everything she does - without regard to justice for anyone else - in order to attract votes. If a leader does something to reign in secular Israel or reprimand the secular nation for human rights abuses, they are portrayed as an enemy of God and "hater" of Israel.

Nothing about this post is true.

 

[John of Japan]

You know, you preterists (including Covenanter) keep railing against dispensationalism, sometimes violently. But almost none of you have said what you oppose. You can oppose Zionism if you want, but that really has nothing to do with dispensationalism. Asterisktom opposes the literalism of dispensationalism, but then you have to oppose that in general, because there are other theologies that use a literal hermeneutic.

Frankly, as much as you oppose it, I don't think you guys know much of anything about real dispensational theology, judging by what I've seen on this thread and previously on the BB. As my signature says, "You cannot teach some people anything because they already know so much that is not so."--J. B. Gambrell, Texas preacher.

 

[Covenanter]

You know, you preterists (including Covenanter) keep railing against dispensationalism, sometimes violently. But almost none of you have said what you oppose. ......

Have you read my posts, seeking to understand John's visions? I don't think I have said ANYTHING against or about dispensationalism. Rather I have asked for contributions according to your understanding of eschatology, particularly as they apply to us in the present age/dispensation.

 

[Covenanter]

Rev. 7, still under the 6th seal ....

God's purpose for the redeemed from Israel & for the great multitude, is glory in his presence.
Some have suffered great tribulation in the rebellion leading to the destruction, but all will rejoice as they/we worship our Saviour God.

We have this to look forward to:

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.​

 

[HankD]

Not at all. I am fully aware of alternative interpretations of Scripture, but when arguments become personal or are repeated against protestations, then heat is generated rather than light.

I pointed out early in the thread that historical arguments for dating were inconclusive. I asked for constructive interpretations of Revelation, rather than arguments about theological positions.

Yes but be prepared to be challenged upon your own "hermeneutic" as it is an admitted essential to your debate

We need to understand -
When John saw his visions - before or after AD 70".
Who they were for
Who they were about
What is the relevance to living believers - or is it distant past or future end times

So we therefore must continue on with the presumption that it was written before AD 70?

HankD

 

[Covenanter]

Rev. 8 - And now the 7th seal is opened. God's plan for the judgment of those who persistently rejected their Messiah, and for the blessing of those who received him, has now been revealed.

8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.​

The response sounds as if the angels & redeemed in heaven wonder in silence at the perfection of God's revelation - victory, vindication for Christ & his redeemed people, & judgment for the wicked.

Are we, am I, trusting our Saviour & serving him faithfully. Do we say with Job:

13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:
but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
16 He also shall be my salvation:
for an hypocrite shall not come before him.
​

The visions move on. The plan is to be put into effect, but God is gracious & compassionate, certainly not vindictive. Trumpets sound a warning. In his lifetime, Jesus repeatedly warned the Jewish leaders of the consequences of their rejection of him.

Rev. 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
​

Do we pray as we read & hear God's word? For the protection & deliverance of the faithful, the salvation of sinners, even the enemies of the believers & of the Gospel, & the final judgment of the rebellious?

Before the judgment begins, warning trumpets sound. But the trumpets do not silence the sound of the Gospel:

Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.​

 

[Covenanter]

There's a lot more to learn from this revelation.
I'd love to hear from others - regardless of your eschatology.

 

[HankD]

Rev. 7, still under the 6th seal ....

God's purpose for the redeemed from Israel & for the great multitude, is glory in his presence.
Some have suffered great tribulation in the rebellion leading to the destruction, but all will rejoice as they/we worship our Saviour God.

We have this to look forward to:

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.​

...and serve him day and night in his temple:

In your view C what is the location of the temple?

Thanks.

HankD

 

[John of Japan]

Have you read my posts, seeking to understand John's visions? I don't think I have said ANYTHING against or about dispensationalism. Rather I have asked for contributions according to your understanding of eschatology, particularly as they apply to us in the present age/dispensation.

Actually, you agreed with someone else's negative comment.

As for the whole book of Revelation, I have 22 lessons on it. No offense, but I really don't see how you can cover the book on just one thread, especially here where the forums are for debate.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually it doesn't.

It needs to have the Second Coming has already happened, heresy!

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry, that could be historical premil, rather than dispensational. In fact, one can hold to a mid-trib or pre-wrath or post trib rapture and still be dispensational.

True, but the left behind has pre trib rapture!