A VERY DARK Day for the USA!

[Salty]

I think that he used force to achieve this.

From Wiki: Constantine was the first emperor to stop the persecution of Christians and to legalize Christianity, along with all other religions/cults in the Roman Empire. In February 313, he met with Licinius in Milan and developed the Edict of Milan, which stated that Christians should be allowed to follow their faith without oppression.[216][page needed] This removed penalties for professing Christianity, under which many had been martyred previously, and it returned confiscated Church property.

Constantine the Great - Wikipedia

 

[Baptist Believer]

While that is true, they can make a difference. If you had to choose between living under Nero or Constantine ... it would make a difference.

It would be more comfortable to live under Constantine (one of my ancient ancestors, BTW), but it was better for the church to live under Nero. You had to be a true and committed believer to live under persecution, but corrupt elements came in under Constantine and the church began to use the power of the sword instead of the power of the Spirit.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 7 pm EST / 4 pm PST

Bump

 

[JonC]

and yet you said, "Yes, I agree with that passage and your interpretation". Is that picture of you 20 years old?

Yes, I acknowledged that. I did not realize that you were adding to the passage in your mind. I meant that I agreed with the passage and that we are subject to the governments God has raised to be over us.

 

[Quantrill]

I never said that a Christian could not be a part of the State. I said that the Early Church believed that Christians should not be a part of the State, should not vote, and should not serve in the military. The Early Church writing assume that Christians would not be a part of the State. I do not see much in terms of telling Christians that they cannot be a part of the State until the Anabaptists. But the Early Church simply refused to be a part of the State because they believed their roles were in the Kingdom of God and not the worldly powers of the State.

I am saying that I believe Christians should not be a part of the State in terms of politics. That does not mean "cannot work for the state". I am talking about politics and worldly powers, not state jobs. I am employed as a Special Investigator retained by DoD. I work, indirectly, for the federal government.

That's not true. Post #(65) you said that Christians should not be judges or law enforcement officers.

Oh gee. You work for the federal government. Fancy that. Yet Christians should not involve themselves in that. Is that a confession?

You haven't given any proof that Christians should not be involved in politics. Now we have proof you are involved with the Federal govt. The hypocrisy doesn't end.

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

That's not true. Post #(65) you said that Christians should not be judges or law enforcement officers.

Oh gee. You work for the federal government. Fancy that. Yet Christians should not involve themselves in that. Is that a confession?

You haven't given any proof that Christians should not be involved in politics. Now we have proof you are involved with the Federal govt. The hypocrisy doesn't end.

Quantrill

This is a false claim.

The early church thought so. I think it is a question for each person.

Saying that this is a question for each person is not saying that people should not be judges.

And I do not work for the federal government (I work for a federal contract company). That said, I never said that people should refrain from holding government jobs. I said that I believe it is wrong to hold political positions.

A police officer is not a political position. A police chief....maybe...I don't know enough to say. A solider is not a political position. Working as a teacher for a public school system is not a political position. Working on clearances (what I do) is not a political position. A trash collector working for the city is not a political position. A mail deliver working for the US post office (federal government) is not a political position. A utility worker for the city public works is not a political position. An air-traffic controller working for the United States Army is not a political position.

You are a very confused person.

 

[SavedByGrace]

This is a false claim.



Saying that this is a question for each person is not saying that people should not be judges.

And I do not work for the federal government (I work for a federal contract company). That said, I never said that people should refrain from holding government jobs. I said that I believe it is wrong to hold political positions.

A police officer is not a political position. A police chief....maybe...I don't know enough to say. A solider is not a political position. Working as a teacher for a public school system is not a political position. Working on clearances (what I do) is not a political position. A trash collector working for the city is not a political position. A mail deliver working for the US post office (federal government) is not a political position. A utility worker for the city public works is not a political position. An air-traffic controller working for the United States Army is not a political position.

You are a very confused person.

You are speaking mumbo jumbo!

 

[JonC]

You are speaking mumbo jumbo!

It is a matter of discernment. I am speaking truth. You are hearing mumbo jumbo.

 

[Quantrill]

This is a false claim.



Saying that this is a question for each person is not saying that people should not be judges.

And I do not work for the federal government (I work for a federal contract company). That said, I never said that people should refrain from holding government jobs. I said that I believe it is wrong to hold political positions.

A police officer is not a political position. A police chief....maybe...I don't know enough to say. A solider is not a political position. Working as a teacher for a public school system is not a political position. Working on clearances (what I do) is not a political position. A trash collector working for the city is not a political position. A mail deliver working for the US post office (federal government) is not a political position. A utility worker for the city public works is not a political position. An air-traffic controller working for the United States Army is not a political position.

You are a very confused person.

You said you worked indirectly for the Federal govt. See post #(110). I am just going by what you said.

Oh. It is wrong to hold political positions. And, you said it is wrong to vote. Does the voter hold a political position? Or is he just being responsible to his country in voting?

Quantrill

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is a matter of discernment. I am speaking truth. You are hearing mumbo jumbo.

 

[JonC]

I will spell it out again (for anyone who is really honest enough to care).

I have the conviction that Christians are not to become entangled with secular politics. I believe that politics is a "power of this world" and I will follow my convictions.

I do not advocate, and have not advocated, my convictions on others. People need to follow their conscious with the realization that if wrong that error does not an excuse.

I do not believe it is wrong to work for a government, to hold a job working for a county, to be a police officer, or to serve in the military. Holding a government job does not equate to being involved in politics.

I am glad that there are Christians in public leadership. I do not know of any that are politicians who I would consider to be doing kingdom work, but I am glad that there are people who govern who are Christians with the hope that they are using their positions to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[JonC]

You said you worked indirectly for the Federal govt. See post #(110). I am just going by what you said.

Oh. It is wrong to hold political positions. And, you said it is wrong to vote. Does the voter hold a political position? Or is he just being responsible to his country in voting?

Quantrill

Yes. But it is not a political position. Yes, voters do hold political positions (as voters) and lend their voice to political agendas. No, we do not have a responsibility to vote.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I will spell it out again (for anyone who is really honest enough to care).

I have the conviction that Christians are not to become entangled with secular politics. I believe that politics is a "power of this world" and I will follow my convictions.

I do not advocate, and have not advocated, my convictions on others. People need to follow their conscious with the realization that if wrong that error does not an excuse.

I do not believe it is wrong to work for a government, to hold a job working for a county, to be a police officer, or to serve in the military. Holding a government job does not equate to being involved in politics.

I am glad that there are Christians in public leadership. I do not know of any that are politicians who I would consider to be doing kingdom work, but I am glad that there are people who govern who are Christians with the hope that they are using their positions to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[percho]

I never said that a Christian could not be a part of the State. I said that the Early Church believed that Christians should not be a part of the State, should not vote, and should not serve in the military. The Early Church writing assume that Christians would not be a part of the State. I do not see much in terms of telling Christians that they cannot be a part of the State until the Anabaptists. But the Early Church simply refused to be a part of the State because they believed their roles were in the Kingdom of God and not the worldly powers of the State.

I am saying that I believe Christians should not be a part of the State in terms of politics. That does not mean "cannot work for the state". I am talking about politics and worldly powers, not state jobs. I am employed as a Special Investigator retained by DoD. I work, indirectly, for the federal government.

But the Early Church simply refused to be a part of the State because they believed their roles were in the Kingdom of God and not the worldly powers of the State

Is that in the bible, if so, where?

 

[SavedByGrace]

But the Early Church simply refused to be a part of the State because they believed their roles were in the Kingdom of God and not the worldly powers of the State

Is that in the bible, if so, where?

Start a new thread on this as it is a very interesting subject

 

[Quantrill]

Yes. But it is not a political position. Yes, voters do hold political positions (as voters) and lend their voice to political agendas. No, we do not have a responsibility to vote.

You work 'indirectly' for the Federal govt. But, it is not a political position, you say. You are paid for your position. But, you say, a voter does hold a political position even though he isn't paid. What hypocrisy.

No. Voters don't hold 'political positions'. They are citizens of the nation exercising their privilege to vote. They are responsible when they vote.

It is very clear that you, who work for the Federal govt., don't want Christians to vote. You try and use 'spirituality' as a reason for Christians not to vote. They must be more concerned with God than with voting, you say.

Quantrill

 

[JonC]

You work 'indirectly' for the Federal govt. But, it is not a political position, you say. You are paid for your position. But, you say, a voter does hold a political position even though he isn't paid. What hypocrisy.

No. Voters don't hold 'political positions'. They are citizens of the nation exercising their privilege to vote. They are responsible when they vote.

It is very clear that you, who work for the Federal govt., don't want Christians to vote. You try and use 'spirituality' as a reason for Christians not to vote. They must be more concerned with God than with voting, you say.

Quantrill

Wrong. You are confused. I am not saying that Christians should not be employed by the Federal government (directly or indirectly). There are plenty of political positions and activities in which people can engage that are not paid positions.

I do not care if Christians vote or not. As I said, that is a personal decision between the Christian and God. I am saying that I believe Christians should not become entangled in politics, and that is how I live my life.

If you notice, you are the only person (well, maybe @SavedByGrace ) who is on this forum trying to say that I am wrong by following my convictions and abstaining from politics. I am not saying others are wrong. I am saying I believe Christians should not be entangled with politics for many reasons, and this affects how I live my life - I do not project that on others.

I am not trying to use spirituality as a reason Christians should not vote. Again, you are confused. I am saying that my personal convictions are that Christians lose their voice and endanger their testimony when they become entangled in politics. This is not "spirituality" but my interpretation of Scripture (of what it means to be "called out" from the World). I only mentioned that the NT and Early Church shared this view because I think it is important to make sure one is not alone in their interpretations.

I do not know how focused or concerned other Christians are with God. I do not know if they hold animosity towards people of the opposite political view. I do not know if they read the Bible or just profess to be Christians. I do not know if they walk on water on their days off. That is between them and God. I do not judge them (I do not judge the servants of Another). I am just saying what I believe.

 

[percho]

The kingdom of God??????????

But the Early Church simply refused to be a part of the State because they believed their roles were in the Kingdom of God and not the worldly powers of the State


And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom,

A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. - Is that speaking of Jesus going to Heaven to receive the kingdom of God?

Isa 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.------- Is that passage speaking of the kingdom of God Jesus was speaking about in Luke 19?
Dan 7:13,14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.______ Is that the kingdom of God Jesus was speaking of in Luke 19?

Has Jesus returned yet having received that kingdom and called his servants? Will a lot of them be called through the resurrection > But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.1 Cor 15:23 Will they be called into the kingdom as flesh and blood?

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.-------- Is that the same kingdom of God Jesus was speaking of in Luke 19?

Did the children of Israel inherit the land when they entered the land by crossing over the Jordan on dry land?

1 Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

News Flash - The living will not precede (enter) the kingdom of God, the dead, If you believe Jesus died and rose again even so the dead in Christ will be raised and together with the living, in Christ, will meet the Lord in the air and all together will enter the kingdom of God.

 

[percho]

Start a new thread on this as it is a very interesting subject

I will let Jon start it and I believe my post before this one is why he would feel that is, there. I believe they were looking toward the kingdom of God not being in, it.

 

[JonC]

I will let Jon start it and I believe my post before this one is why he would feel that is, there. I believe they were looking toward the kingdom of God not being in, it.

You are exactly right on why the NT and Early Church were not involved in politics or holding public offices. Their idea of the kingdom of God was a lot different from what people think today. Today many just spiritualize it as important only as a future event. But they had a very different understanding.

Whether their understanding was correct can be debated. I believe it was. Others believe it was not. Antiquity does not equate to correctness, but I do believe they were more correct than we are today as a whole.