Calvibaptist
New Member
Who are you to tell God how sovereignty is to be?
</font>[/QUOTE]Leave it up to an synergist to answer a quote from Scripture with a philosophical argument!
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</font>[/QUOTE]Leave it up to an synergist to answer a quote from Scripture with a philosophical argument!
Calvibaptist
New Member
Guys, Paul uses the Greek word "necros" for a reason. No, he is not saying we are physically dead. He is saying we are spiritually dead. BUT, he is using that term illustratively. Just as a physically dead person cannot respond to physically stimulii, a spiritually dead person cannot respond to spiritual stimulii. This is why, even while we were dead, God raised us up. He brought us to life so that we could respond.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Thank you for making our point. God chose us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 3:4). He, in a voluntary act of selecting or separating from two or more things that which is preferred; or in a determination of his mind in preferring one thing to another, elected us.
The question is why? You say "because He looked down in time and saw who would choose Him." The Bible says, because of "the good pleasure of His will" (Eph 1:5).
Who are you to tell God how sovereignty is to be?
</font>[/QUOTE]Leave it up to an synergist to answer a quote from Scripture with a philosophical argument!
Calvibaptist
New Member
A monergist is someone who believes that God did absolutely everything, including giving them repentance and faith, for salvation. A synergist is someone who believes that they add anything, including their faith, to God's work in order to be saved. Under those definitions, you are a synergist.
Calvibaptist
New Member
How did Adam and Eve respond to God after eating of the tree, and after dying "spiritually"? </font>[/QUOTE]OH NO! Not the old Adam and Eve question again! OK, here we go:
1) The story of Adam and Eve says nothing about whether God regenerated Adam and Eve before or after they answered him from behind the bush.
2) The story of Adam and Eve says nothing about eternal salvation.
3) Adam's response of admission of guilt does not necessarily equal faith.
4) God immediately after Adam and Eve responded to Him, issued the curse which we all fall under. Hardly a test-case for eternal salvation.
5) We need to stop using a story to determine doctrine. We can use a story to illustrate doctrine, but the determination of doctrine should come from the doctrinal passages (which I have already listed for you). For example (something most of us would probably agree on), the charismatics use the stories in Acts to determine their charismatic doctrines. We patiently point them to the doctrinal sections in 1 Corinthians to determine the doctrine and illustrate it from Acts.
6) The only response you read of in Genesis is verbal (physical). You see no indication of what Adam and Eve's spiritual response may or may not have been.
Also, while we are illustrating doctrine with stories from the bible, I figured I'd add one.
The response of the people of Israel in front of Mt. Sinai was a response to a physical manifestation and hearing. Oh and by the way, they chose that day, right? Funny they all died in the wilderness after choosing God that day at Mt. Sinai. What does that show of the validity of man's choice? Seems to me that man's choice avails nothing in God's economy, it is God's choice that matters. The only choice of man that matters is the one made once God has chosen him.
The response of the people of Israel in front of Mt. Sinai was a response to a physical manifestation and hearing. Oh and by the way, they chose that day, right? Funny they all died in the wilderness after choosing God that day at Mt. Sinai. What does that show of the validity of man's choice? Seems to me that man's choice avails nothing in God's economy, it is God's choice that matters. The only choice of man that matters is the one made once God has chosen him.
Brother James
New Member
Well said brother!
That's always the straw-man rap from Calvinists.
Actually we do believe that God is sovereign, and that He is the one that does the choosing (Rom. 9:15).
But we don't believe that God is capricious in His choosing. We rather believe what He said in Isa. 66:2 and the account given in Luke 18:10-14. Calvinists don't.
We are free moral agents. And those that choose to believe that God will judge and punish sin and has provided a Lamb as a way of salvation thereby giving honor to His Son, prompts Him to give us His infinite mercy. That is conditional election.
This has nothing to do having anything to do with His plan. It is His plan. And it is clear by what Jesus said in John 12:48 that one can think and decide to reject Christ and His plan described in John 6:40.
We can be "anything" Jack, but what we cannot do is choose to believe God and repent of our sin sans special working of the Holy Spirit.
You can lay a billion dollars on a coffin and allow the man inside to be a "free moral agent" and grab it. He not only WILL not, he CAN not.
Hence God uses this clear easy-to-understand parallel to describe fallen man's spiritual dilemma. He not only WILL not come to Christ in repentance and faith, he CAN not.
"There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Pretty clear. Will not seek God. Can not seek God. Takes a supernatural intervention.
You can lay a billion dollars on a coffin and allow the man inside to be a "free moral agent" and grab it. He not only WILL not, he CAN not.
Hence God uses this clear easy-to-understand parallel to describe fallen man's spiritual dilemma. He not only WILL not come to Christ in repentance and faith, he CAN not.
"There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
Pretty clear. Will not seek God. Can not seek God. Takes a supernatural intervention.
Ro 10:2 For I bear them (Jews) record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
These have a "WILL" (zeal) and clearly not be saved.
Can you explain your statement in context of these verses??
I'm sorry Dr. Bob but I've never bought that lame Calvinist analogy that a live thinking man is to be compared to a corpse.
Kindly explain why if God believes that nonsense He would waste His time in saying this:
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they
be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isa. 1:18
Would God come up to a rock or a corpse and ask them to reason together with Him?
And no, He is not talking to the converted here either. They were unsaved Israel.
And the publican in Luke 18 went home justified after he humbly repented.
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit has to be involved before salvation takes place. But we must co-operate with that grace. It is not one sided, nor does God intend it to be.
Stephen plainly points this out when he tells the Jews that are about to stone him that their Jewish fathers just like then always resisted the Holy Spirit in the context of salvation in Acts 7:51.
And the meaning behind the "none that seeketh after God" is due to the fear of justice. Not justification. The hearing of the Gospel changes that, and Romans 10:14-16 plainly points out that one must go and tell the Gospel. And one must hear and obey. But not all obey. The emphasis here is on the will.
If the Calvinist view was true here there would be no use in telling anyone the Gospel since as you believe they are corpses anyway with no ability to understand or hear anything. Wich is not true. If they are willing to hear, God will open up the meaning fully to them through the Holy Spirit.
In Isa. 6 you have God blinding the eyes and ears of Israel because of their rebellion against God. They were not (still)born that way.
[ March 04, 2006, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]
Calvibaptist
New Member
Ro 10:2 For I bear them (Jews) record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
These have a "WILL" (zeal) and clearly not be saved.
Can you explain your statement in context of these verses?? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I have already dealt with these verses in this context after you quoted them once before. This "will" (zeal) for God but not according to knowledge is called idolatry in the Bible. All this verse proves is what Calvanists say all along - man, left to their own devices, will ALWAYS choose to reject God. They continue to "not submit themselves to the righteousness of God."
Once again, thank you for proving our point!
Calvibaptist
New Member
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.
Gee, it seems the apostle Paul bought that lame Calvinist analogy, since he wrote it.
For the same reason that I teach my son about righteousness knowing that unless he is regenerated he can never be righteous. God uses His Word to accomplish salvation. If God had never spoken, the elect would never know to come.
Romans 10:13-15 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
We never say that someone can be saved without believing or that someone will believe without hearing the plea of the Gospel. We just say, along with the Scripture, that the Holy Spirit must apply the spoken word to the heart (regeneration) in order for someone to believe. They will not, and cannot, do it on their own.
Luke 19:40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out."
Sounds to me like a rock can do a lot more than the Bible says we can on our own.
Strangely enough, I have found something in your post that I agree with. There is hope for you yet!
I guess he must have been regenerated first! Don't try to derive your doctrine from a story. Derive your doctrine from doctrinal passages and fit the stories into the doctrine. A basic of biblical hermeneutics.
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
That sounds pretty one-sided to me.
You keep misunderstanding what Calvinist believe the Bible says. The Bible clearly says that our rejection of God is the choice we make. I shouldn't have to repeat this over and over again. But the Bible is just as clear that repentance and faith are gifts from God.
WRONG. The emphasis is on the use of the will to disobey and refuse to seek God. It is not emphasizing the use of the will to receive.
If the Arminian view was true there would be no use in praying that God would save anyone. We should all be praying to people that they would exercize their sovereign free wills and not let God interfere. We should be praying to God to continue being a "perfect gentleman" and not superimpose himself on anyone in any way since that might violate the free exercize of their wills.
We all (both sides) share the gospel for many reasons.
1) We are commanded to.
2) We care about lost people.
3) God uses our proclamation to save people.
They were born that way. No one had to teach them to rebel. That is a very basic theological point. We are all born in sin. God was blinding their eyes so that they could not turn from their sins that they were already in and believe. This is what we Calvinists have been saying all along.
You really shouldn't bring up Isaiah 6 because it does put your view into question. Why would God blind people if He loves them all indescriminately? Did these people lose their free will after God blinded them? How many people was this talking about? I thought God loved the world, but it doesn't appear that he feels any love for these people that He is blinding.
Really, this passage just proves our point. Again, I thank you for that.
Bob and Calvibaptist.
In light of your corpse analogy, kindly explain what Scripture means buy "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." and "The Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ" (Gal. 3:24). I would like to know how one goes about schooling a corpse?
And how can Scripture say that the "Law of LORD is perfect, converting the soul" (Ps. 19:7) if the unconverted person can't ponder on the Law since he is a corpse?
And I can hardly understand your argument in your above post Calvi. You post my remark about the "corpse" statement and spend your whole post defending the poor use of that term, and you then go on to contradict yourself with this statement:
My suggestion is that all you Calvinists stop using that corpse analogy since it is unbiblical. God has given us all the ability to think. That si why He gets angry when people sin and reject Christ. John 12:48.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Rom. 1:18-20
In light of your corpse analogy, kindly explain what Scripture means buy "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." and "The Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ" (Gal. 3:24). I would like to know how one goes about schooling a corpse?
And how can Scripture say that the "Law of LORD is perfect, converting the soul" (Ps. 19:7) if the unconverted person can't ponder on the Law since he is a corpse?
And I can hardly understand your argument in your above post Calvi. You post my remark about the "corpse" statement and spend your whole post defending the poor use of that term, and you then go on to contradict yourself with this statement:
How does that relate to a corpse that can do no thinking or deciding at all? And it is not I that is misunderstanding Calvinists. You all seem to use this "corpse" analogy to the destruction of the truth of Scripture. I am only rebuting your use of the term.
My suggestion is that all you Calvinists stop using that corpse analogy since it is unbiblical. God has given us all the ability to think. That si why He gets angry when people sin and reject Christ. John 12:48.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Rom. 1:18-20
Under sovereign will, Why teach him, if God calls, it doesn't matter what he does/doesn't know about God, or anyone else for that matter, he/they don't have a "choice", so what difference does "knowledge/Education" make one way or the other???
God doesn't "regenerate" then saved, "FAITH" in Jesus comes before going to God for regeneration,
"belief/unbelief" in Jesus determines if God will/won't regenerate.
The Spirit's calling IS NOT regeneration, many are called but only a few are regenerated.
And if we must believe in Jesus before God will save, (regenerate) how can regeneration take place before we "believe"???
"No man" comes/goes to God except by "FAITH IN JESUS", that's comes FIRST.
Calvibaptist
New Member
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" is a proverb written by Solomon. It is a universal truth that is not supposed to be tied up in details. The Galatians 3:24 passage is no problem. The Law is used by the Holy Spirit to give the information that is needed to impart faith. I'll say again what I have said a number of times - God has ordained the ends (salvation of the elect) as well as the means (the preaching of the gospel). It is not I who schools the corpse, it is the Holy Spirit through the Word. I am only a waiter delivering a meal.
See above comments.
Our use of the corpse analogy concerns a positive spiritual response. We are dead to that. We live our lives spiritually dead. We give a negative response to spiritual things all the time. That negative response shows itself as rejection of God in the same way the negative response of a physically dead person would show itself in rejection of anyone talking to them. I think it is a pretty obvious analogy.
I will stop using it as soon as it is stricken from Ephesians 2:1-7
Ephesians 2:1-7 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
and from Colossians 2:13-14
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
I would imagine since Paul says we are "dead" and uses the Greek word necros, which is the general word for "dead", and that since a corpse is the word we use for a "dead" body, that it is a reasonable analogy.
Again, you quote a verse that shows that everyone rejects God. Yeah, you're right. Everyone rejects God. That's what Paul means when he says everyone is dead in tresspasses and sins. They walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air and are by nature children of wrath. Thus, they follow their father, the devil and continue to reject God. UNTIL, he makes them alive.
People don't need a roadmap. They need a miracle.
Calvibaptist
New Member
How many times do I have to say that God has not only ordained the ends (the salvation of the elect), but also the means (in this case, teaching)?
A major portion of the Church disagrees with you. Oh, and so does Jesus. John 3:1-13 deal with regeneration before Jesus ever mentions belief in John 3:15. Regeneration first. Faith next (at least in theological jargon). In reality, they are probably simultaneous but one logically follows the other.
I agree with you here. But only those who are called are regenerated. And everyone who is called is regenerated.
1) You misquoted this verse - Many are called, but few are chosen
2) This "calling" is the general call of the gospel that goes out when the gospel is preached. It is not the "calling" of the Holy Spirit.
Didn't we deal with this quite a bit in previous threads? REGENERATION IS ONLY A PART OF SALVATION. Salvation involves election, predestination, calling, regeneration, repentance, faith, indwelling, sealing, justification, sanctification, and glorification. REGENERATION DOES NOT EQUAL, BUT IS ONLY A PART OF, SALVATION AS IT IS TAUGHT IN THE SCRIPTURE.
Obviously, faith in Jesus is hardly the first step that is done in salvation. It is the first step a human takes, but it is hardly the first step God took.