A.W. Pink On Election ...

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:

Originally posted by quickened1:
This is why when people bring up Adam and Eve to me and make that a major argument about people using their free will in an unregenerate state, I have absolutely no problem saying, "Gee, they must have been regenerated before they responded."

But cal, and I will say you have brought up some good pts, but you have no grounds to say they were regenerated before God approached them. YOu are not even close to addressing adam and eve. Best you just say I can't answer everything then muttle through with some half answer. </font>

Tim,
My reasoning goes like this. The doctrinal portions of the Scriptures say that someone must be regenerated before they can respond to God. Therefore, if I see someone (anyone) in any time period, responding to God, they must be regenerate.

The situation of Adam and Eve is a prime example of a story that says nothing about anything. It doesn't even really tell us they were saved. We assume it. If we are going to assume they "got saved" when God approached them and cursed the ground and killed the animals and made the clothes of skin, then I am going to assume that in order for them to respond properly to God, they were regenerate.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by quickened1:
In light of Romans 8:29 I dont believe people that lived and died before Christ was born, could have been regenerated. That would include O.T. believers.
"For whom he did foreknow,he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
In order for Christ to be the firstborn among all those regenerated,no one could have been regenerated until after Christ physical birth. I dont think anyone was regenerated until Pentecost. This is signifacant because people in the O.T. did repent and believe.

Hey quickened1, I see you have as much trouble figuring out the quote-within-a-quote thing as I do!

Anyway, I disagree that Christ being "firstborn" has anything to do with time here. Mormons use the same argument to talk about Him being a created being because Colossians says He is the "firstborn over all creation." Firstborn has more to do with pre-eminence than time. If you use your line of reasoning, you have to follow it all the way through to the end of the verses in Rom. 8:29-30. No one in the OT would have been predestined. No one in the OT would have been called. No one in the OT would have been justified. No one in the OT would be glorified.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
but you have no grounds to say they were regenerated before God approached them.

Let me clarify my position here. Again, I can not speak for all calvinists. I know there are some calvinists (even on this board) who believe that the HS regenerates any time He wants to (which I agree with - see John 3:8) without any means whatsoever. I, however, believe that the HS regenerates any time He wants to through the means or agency of the Word.

1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.

This would mean that I believe that when God spoke to Adam and Eve, the HS at that point regenerated them through the Word, and they responded appropriately.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Again, not all calvinists believe this way, but I do.

 

[quickened1]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by quickened1:
In light of Romans 8:29 I dont believe people that lived and died before Christ was born, could have been regenerated. That would include O.T. believers.
"For whom he did foreknow,he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
In order for Christ to be the firstborn among all those regenerated,no one could have been regenerated until after Christ physical birth. I dont think anyone was regenerated until Pentecost. This is signifacant because people in the O.T. did repent and believe.

Hey quickened1, I see you have as much trouble figuring out the quote-within-a-quote thing as I do!

Anyway, I disagree that Christ being "firstborn" has anything to do with time here. Mormons use the same argument to talk about Him being a created being because Colossians says He is the "firstborn over all creation." Firstborn has more to do with pre-eminence than time. If you use your line of reasoning, you have to follow it all the way through to the end of the verses in Rom. 8:29-30. No one in the OT would have been predestined. No one in the OT would have been called. No one in the OT would have been justified. No one in the OT would be glorified. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey There CalviBap.,

Yeah I remember having to deal with Colossians 1:15 about 10 years ago. It wasn't a Mormon who was attacking Christ's deity but rather a JW. Anyway it makes sense to me that Christ would be the firstborn among many brethren. No one was concieved of the Holy Ghost but Jesus. Thus making him THE Son of God. The born again believer is regenerated by the Holy Spirit making him A son of God. Christ is said to be the HEAD of the body. Christ had no body for O.T. believers to be baptized into. I cant see the body of Christ being formed before he was born physically. I certianly agree Christ had pre-eminence.
I do follow through with the reasoning. I dont believe people in the O.T. were saved the same way people are in the N.T. Im dispy and do my best to rightly divide.

 

[Me4Him]

I think calvinist are getting the "Calling" mixed up with "regeneration", in saying we must be "regenerated" before we will hear/accept the "Call".

If that was the case, the many who are called but not chosen would have to be "regenerated" to hear the call, then "un generated" to not be chosen.

The "CALL" "ENABLES" us to respond, but the "Choice" is still our's to make, many called/few chosen, if we accept the "CALL", then and only then, are we "Regenerated".

 

[quickened1]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I think calvinist are getting the "Calling" mixed up with "regeneration", in saying we must be "regenerated" before we will hear/accept the "Call".

Im not a Calvi but I think I know how they would answer that. They would point to total depravity / inability and say it would be impossible for anyone to hear the call unless they were regenerated first.

The sticking point is the way the two sides define total depravity. I dont accept the Calvanist definition because it dosent fit the Old Testament. For example, over 100,000 Ninevites repented after Jonah warned them of God's coming judgement. From what I have read on the BB, the Calvanist would say that these Ninevites were regenerated before they repented. No one in the O.T. was regenerated.

If that was the case, the many who are called but not chosen would have to be "regenerated" to hear the call, then "un generated" to not be chosen.

The "CALL" "ENABLES" us to respond, but the "Choice" is still our's to make, many called/few chosen, if we accept the "CALL", then and only then, are we "Regenerated".

They have stated that we do have a choice. However because of mans depraved nature he will reject GOD every time. That wasn't the case in the O.T.

 

[quickened1]

Originally posted by quickened1:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
I think calvinist are getting the "Calling" mixed up with "regeneration", in saying we must be "regenerated" before we will hear/accept the "Call".

(quickened1 said)
Im not a Calvi but I think I know how they would answer that. They would point to total depravity / inability and say it would be impossible for anyone to hear the call unless they were regenerated first.

The sticking point is the way the two sides define total depravity. I dont accept the Calvanist definition because it dosent fit the Old Testament. For example, over 100,000 Ninevites repented after Jonah warned them of God's coming judgement. From what I have read on the BB, the Calvanist would say that these Ninevites were regenerated before they repented. No one in the O.T. was regenerated.

(Me4Him said)
If that was the case, the many who are called but not chosen would have to be "regenerated" to hear the call, then "un generated" to not be chosen.

The "CALL" "ENABLES" us to respond, but the "Choice" is still our's to make, many called/few chosen, if we accept the "CALL", then and only then, are we "Regenerated".

(quickened1 said)
They have stated that we do have a choice. However because of mans depraved nature he will reject GOD every time. That wasn't the case in the O.T. </font>[/QUOTE]I thank God computer skills are not nec. for salvation...haha!