A.W. Tozer on the JSOC and Outer Darkness

[TCGreek]

This is another one of those texts that "can be" read either way and still be a correct reading. Therefore you can not say dogmatically that there is nothing in the text to suggest a conditional reading, because that's simply not true. Just as much there is nothing in the text that says it has to be a conditional reading.

This is a text where the meaning can only be shown by comparing Scripture with Scripture.

And since it is possible for the saved to walk after the flesh instead of after the Spirit a conditional reading is needed. If it were an impossibility to walk after the flesh and only be able to walk after the Spirit then your reading would be correct.

1. My reply has the potential of rehashing previous discussions. So, I will only add this:

2. My understanding of what the Scripture teaches on the subjects of Salvation, Sanctification and Glorification will not allow me to advocate the logical ends of what you are suggesting.

 

[TCGreek]

Footnotes? What are they, wannabe scripture? I'm a scripture guy, that's the only thing my Lord said was inspired and I see no evidence that He inspired footnotes.

I was trying to figure out why individuals in this thread were leaving off significant portions of that verse. I thought they were self-truncating in order to support their position. It turns out their Bible truncated it so, now I believe I understand the issue relative to Romans 8:1.

Is that place Romans 8:1?


Tirade? I just found something that I thought was valuable and shared it. I thought it might help us come together on why we are in disagreement on such basic matters. I guess it didn't help, my apologies.

One question I will ask: Do you really understand how translations come about?

 

[npetreley]

Romans 8:1-17
You must read the entire passage to understand what Paul is saying, not just 1 verse out of context.

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Excellent job, Amy. Given Romans 8:9, I don't see how anyone can possibly position the words "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" as a believer's condition for condemnation. If you are walking according to the flesh, you do not have the Spirit of God in you, and you do not belong to Him. You're an unbeliever.

 

[TCGreek]

Lets take this text as you like it, walking after the spirit is the result of being in Christ. Is 'in Christ' synonymous with 'saved by faith'? If it is, then wouldn't that mean someone walking after the flesh is not saved? I would not have a problem with saying that walking after the spirit is a result of being in Christ, if by in Christ you mean 'abiding in Christ' as Christ Himself tells us
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
But if we attach the condition of abiding in Christ to eternal salvation, then it isn't by grace alone any more.

What does it mean to "walk in the flesh?"

 

[James_Newman]

What does it mean to "walk in the flesh?"

Thats a good question.

Romans 8:5-13
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If one is walking after the flesh, they will be occupied with the things of the flesh and not the things of the spirit. They will be carnally minded. They will not be mortifying the deeds of the body through the Spirit.

 

[TCGreek]

Thats a good question.

Romans 8:5-13
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If one is walking after the flesh, they will be occupied with the things of the flesh and not the things of the spirit. They will be carnally minded. They will not be mortifying the deeds of the body through the Spirit.

And do you see this as the lifestyle of one who is truly in Christ, led by the Spirit, to the very end of his/her life?

 

[James_Newman]

And do you see this as the lifestyle of one who is truly in Christ, led by the Spirit, to the very end of his/her life?

Not if you mean abiding in Christ. I also do not see abiding in Christ as the automatic end of everyone who believes. But I do see being raised up on the last day as a promise to all who believe. So now what?

 

[npetreley]

Not if you mean abiding in Christ. I also do not see abiding in Christ as the automatic end of everyone who believes. But I do see being raised up on the last day as a promise to all who believe. So now what?

My Bible says it is automatic. The progression from Romans 8:1 leads to...

Rom 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

So either you're in the Spirit or in the flesh. There's no in-between. This seems rather simple unless you start getting into the heresy of sinless perfection.

 

[TCGreek]

Not if you mean abiding in Christ. I also do not see abiding in Christ as the automatic end of everyone who believes. But I do see being raised up on the last day as a promise to all who believe. So now what?

1. So if abiding is Christ is not the automatic end of everyone who believes, what must a person do to abide in Christ?

2. Abiding in Christ is not the automatic end of everyone who believes yet everyone who believes is promised to be raised at the last day.

a. Are we looking at two groups of saved people here? Those who abide in Christ and those who believe but do not abide in Christ but are promised to be raised at the last day.

b. So what happens when both die, the "abiding-in-Christ" believer and the "one-who-believes" in Christ believer? Where do they go?

3. I am trying to understand your line of reasoning.

***edited

 

[J. Jump]

So either you're in the Spirit or in the flesh.

So when you sin are you "in the Spirit" or are you "in the flesh?" Is the Spirit controlling you when you sin or is the flesh controlling you when you sin?

I think you will find your position is one of impossibility. The Spirit does not cause you or make you sin. Therefore it is impossible for you to be "in the Spirit" when you sin. So to say that you are "always" in the Spirit is inaccruate and impossible.

 

[J. Jump]

Are we looking at the groups of saved people here?

Most if not all the comparisons in the NT that I am aware of are comparing/contrasting the two groups of saved. You have the faithful and the unfaithful. You have the obedient and the disobedient. You have the overcomers and those that are overcome. You have the winners and you have the disqualified.

 

[Amy.G]

Thats a good question.

Romans 8:5-13
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

If one is walking after the flesh, they will be occupied with the things of the flesh and not the things of the spirit. They will be carnally minded. They will not be mortifying the deeds of the body through the Spirit.

They also will DIE.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall DIE; BUT, if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall LIVE. (KJV)

flesh=die
Spirit=live

 

[Amy.G]

Most if not all the comparisons in the NT that I am aware of are comparing/contrasting the two groups of saved. You have the faithful and the unfaithful. You have the obedient and the disobedient. You have the overcomers and those that are overcome. You have the winners and you have the disqualified.

Who among us (the saved) is not disobedient? Who among us has not experienced doubt and our faith tested?

We are all doomed to fire for 1000 years by your standards.

There is none righteous, no not one.

So, when you stand at the JSOC, who's righteousness will gain you entrance to the kindgom?

 

[J. Jump]

They also will DIE.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall DIE; BUT, if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall LIVE.

AMEN! Exactly what we have been saying. If you walk in the Spirit you live. If you walk in the flesh you "will" die.

You can save your life now and lose it (die) in the age to come. Or you can lose your life (die to self) now and find life (aionios life) in the age to come.

Who among us (the saved) is not disobedient?

Obedient and disobedient is not talking about absolute perfection and imperfection. You can sin and confess and you are still obedient. Paul said he was blameless according to the law. Do you think that Paul meant he was perfect? Paul simply meant that since the law provided a provision for his mess ups that he was blameless because he took advantage of that.

The same holds true for us. We have provision for our mess ups should we seek it. That doesn't mean we will though.

Again obedience is not perfection.

 

[Amy.G]

JJ, you forgot to answer this question:

So, when you stand at the JSOC, who's righteousness will gain you entrance to the kindgom?

 

[npetreley]

AMEN! Exactly what we have been saying.

As I've said again and again, you guys are so predictable. Can I call 'em or what?

 

[J. Jump]

As I've said again and again, you guys are so predictable.

Well when we agree with Scripture and someone posts Scripture of course we are going to be predicable.

 

[Amy.G]

Still waiting, JJ..............

So, when you stand at the JSOC, who's righteousness will gain you entrance to the kindgom?

 

[npetreley]

Still waiting, JJ..............

So, when you stand at the JSOC, who's righteousness will gain you entrance to the kindgom?

You got 'im cornered, Amy, don't give up.

 

[Amy.G]

You got 'im cornered, Amy, don't give up.

.......singing Jeopardy song...........